Hyperfest 2013 SpecE30 crash video / both perspectives

Maybe this was discussed on here already, but a video posted today at TTAC made me want to discuss a bit further.
Article: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/06/who-ordered-the-schnitzel-turnover/#more-492542

In the video, a spec E30 race is underway with lots of bumpin, rubbin, and racing. At the 3:58 mark, the camera shows the car seemingly punted, and a spin/roll ensues. video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92eUXohpGk&feature=player_embedded

Now, from the forward only view it seems pretty straightforward. Things look a little different (imo) from the other car. That video can be seen here: http://vimeo.com/68543464

Apparently, the car "causing" the crash was cited, penalized, etc. Watching it from his perspective though, it's not quite as clear cut. In the corner leading to the straight, the cars are door to door (at 0:19). The other car (imo) is well aware of his presence. After the corner it's basically a drag race down the straight. By 0:22 the other car clearly has more than a door length, and moves to the left going through the kink, but the other car is still there. Two cars can't be in same place at once. Crash occurs.

Curious to GRM thoughts on racing courtesy/fault, etc. I have no affiliation with anyone involved, and no prior knowledge of the event, other than seeing the video today.

By the rules, perhaps the white car was at fault, by common sense the red car was? IDK.

Tough call. I wouldn't expect a car behind me to get out of my way just because I want over in the line he's in, I'm more inclined to blame the red car for not checking his mirrors before lane changes

In reply to t25torx:

That is my gut feeling as well, but spec e30's rules always seemed stupid to me.

From one of the TTAC commenters (since I can't be bothered to read the rulebook myself: "The rules do point out that doing this can lead to exactly what happened: white car gets DQ, but the red car (who decided to shove the white car away) gets a DNF and a wrecked car."

So basically "You and your pile of scrap metal can occupy the moral high ground"

t25torx wrote: Tough call. I wouldn't expect a car behind me to get out of my way just because I want over in the line he's in, I'm more inclined to blame the red car for not checking his mirrors before lane changes

The field of view in first video omits the rear-view and side mirrors, so it looks like the driver was an innocent victim. I'd imagine that in real life, if that driver was not keeping an eye on his mirrors, he'd feel like the victim too.

yamaha wrote: By the rules, perhaps the white car was at fault, by common sense the red car was? IDK.

This is how I felt. The red car may have had the right to the spot, but he clearly didn't see the white car and just moved over very quickly. The correct thing to do (IMO, IANARCD) would have been to slowly squeeze the white car until the white car realized it was better to back off than get pushed off the track. If the white car didn't back off after a little bit of squeezing, then maybe a little nudge would be in order. But the red car just blindly moved on over and paid the consequence.

Yeah, that second view told a whole heck of a lot more of a story than the TTAC video. Red moved over pretty deliberately there and white clearly had a line.

I haven't gone through the rules and I don't know much about spec E30, or anything about these drivers, but I do remember a NASA (I think?) rule that states that the leading car has the full right of way until the passing (trailing) car gets his front wheel along side the driver of the leading car (something like that).

As OP pointed out, this occurred in the corner beforehand, but it wasn't the case (though it was pretty close) when the red car came left across the front of the white car. I think maybe technically, the red car is supposed to have the right of way there. That said, IMO he clearly knew he was cutting off the white car and was trying to strong-arm his way on to the racing line. So, he had kinda had it coming.

I can't really understand these types of incidents though. In the long run, they both lost out a lot more than if they had just been somewhat accommodating. (Red car wrecked, white car lifted off the throttle and lost a position or two and probably risked a tire or radiator puncture)

Javelin wrote: Yeah, that second view told a whole heck of a lot more of a story than the TTAC video. Red moved over pretty deliberately there and white clearly had a line.

Notice, though, that white clearly moves to mid-track to make red's entry into 4 worse (setting up for a turn 5 pass by screwing them both up at 4?) but at that point he maintains his line while red moves over. I wonder if red thought he was tightening a gap that no longer existed.

The aggrieved youtube poster pointed out this rulebook25.4.2 Punting The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or s ide-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail) contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line . Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to t he driver of the other, it is considered that the t railing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver mu st leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing roo m is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact m ade between the cars, the contact will be considere d “side-to- side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side cont act is considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing surface (involuntarily) then it may sti ll be considered “a racing incident.” **[Note: The whole in tent of the “wheel next to the driver” rule is to m ake sure that the overtaken driver sees the overtaking car.] **

Emphasis mine, if not removed by the blockquote. Typos belong to the rulebook pdf.

I have a hard time believing the red car didn't know the white car was there. The way this rule is written, there's a strong connotation that the white car needed to have just gotten his wheel up next to the driver as part of an overtake, while the red car was, if anything, pulling back out at the point of contact. That doesn't really answer whether the white car loses that right to some pavement as soon as the opposing driver gets ahead of his front wheel. The note suggests that the red car should have had in mind that the white car was there and shouldn't have behaved like he had the track to himself.

I feel like the intent of the rule (or the intent of the note following the rule?) wasn't enforced here, but when the rules wind up on paper, you've gotta enforce something, and enforcing as-written while pulling for an improved document is a respectable approach.

I'm having a high-caveat day. I have not yet participated in wheel to wheel racing outside a kart track and a tiny bit of motorcycle racing where I was so slow there wasn't much "wheel to wheel" after the first lap. I am not an expert. I do not claim to have the last word, and if you think I'm wrong, I probably am, or at least my opinion isn't worth any more than yours, or anybody else's...

In reply to ransom:

Yeah, that's the rule I was thinking of. Even with that in mind, it's not totally clear who was "right". In the end they both lost out though.

In reply to JohnyHachi6:

Too true.

I look forward to wheel to wheel at some point. I hope I can remember at all times that just like my Cat C Masters cyclocross races, there is little less important in the world on any given day than the battle for eighth in Spec E30...

O.K. Watched both videos. Pretty much speaks for itself. Car on the right side of the track moves left and there's a car already there. He did it to himself. No "punting" occurred as posted. Innocent driver gets penalized for nothing.

I don't see any way the red car didn't know the white car was there. They were side by side in the previous corner.

The way I see it, the white car was pretty much holding his line and the red car turned into him. The red car punted himself.

Then again I don't think there should be instant replay in any sport. What did the corner workers say about the incident.

It's very close but the white car is indeed technically at fault.

In a small fraction of a second it changed from the driver of the red car being at fault according to Figure 8 in the NASA CCR's racing situations section, to the white car being at fault according to figure 10, because the red car pulled far enough ahead to move the white car's front wheel behind the front seat row area. It happens around the 20 second mark in the white car's video.

The driver of the red car may have known this and tried to take advantage of it by expecting the driver of the white car to get out of the way quickly...a risky gamble that didn't pay off. But yeah he and his pile of scrap metal can occupy the (technical) moral high ground.

In reply to GameboyRMH: either way, he lost......and said moral high ground is making him sound like the worlds whiniest Bob Costas on the intrawebz

In the first vid, it looks as if the red car gets clipped while holding the racing line. In the second vid, it's pretty clear that the red car moves left over into the white car and there's no good excuse for him not to know that car is there. As in:

If the rules say once the trailing car's front wheel is even with the driver of the leading car the trailing car has a right to be there, then it's pretty clear to me the driver of the red car gambled and lost. Again IMHO he can't even occupy the moral high ground because there are at least 3 times (second vid at approx :11, :14 and at :16 which is just before contact) that the trailing car's front wheel is at least even with or even slightly ahead of the red car's driver, yet red moved over. He screwed up.

I guess racing is different, I didn't read the rules. From my pedestrian point of view, it looked like the red car guy was texting while lane changing. I would fault the red car, but I didn't read the rules.

well.. look at it this way.. both had their race weekend ruined.. but I bet the white was back out on the track in a matter or hours.

Honestly, in watching the video of the red car.. he was sloppy. All over the track compared to the cars next to him and overcooking a few corners and needing to brake hard and lose momentium compared to the cars around him. No wonder the orange car slipped by and the white one almost made it too

When I watch in-car video from Spec Piñatas or seemingly all NASA classes I'm amazed at how generally all over the place everyone is, all the time.

In SCCA club racing the sports racers are in with all the open wheel cars - you ~can't~ have contact, and I've got to drive close to perfect line to have a prayer of getting near the "well funded" Radicals that have 80hp/brakes/tires/aero on me.

At a 1'16" pace at Summit if I'm 2' off line I'm screwed.

That SE30 stuff looks completely terrifying.

Door slammers at that level just aren't as precise as a Formula or a spec racer.

It's like the difference between a scalpel and a machete. Both will cut your toes off, but one requires a lot more skill and patience.

What's that saying of knowing who you are racing? Discretion would have been better for both parties in this . . .

There was a lot of bumping and assorted ugliness in that video.

Wow. I saw lots of craptacular cropdusting and weird lines. No wonder all these "$500" bmw's show up at Lechump. Don't believe I'll be venturing into rich kid racing any time soon.

Strike_Zero wrote: What's that saying of knowing who you are racing? Discretion would have been better for both parties in this . . . There was a lot of bumping and assorted ugliness in that video.

Not having driven W2W, I was thinking maybe it was just me but they were doing an awful lot of argey bargey stuff, glad it wasn't just me thinking this.