Besides being almost no fun to drive, the Honda Element is a downright epic vehicle. Mid/low 20s mpg keeps it out of being in contention for best Honda ever. I used to think they were stupid, until I had a friend that owned one.
But, as was mentioned above, the correct choice is Odyssey or Sienna.
Javelin wrote: Check out the Saturn Vue. It may look SUVish, but it's really a wagon in disguise. 2.2L Ecotec, 5-speed manual, lots of space, and gets the gas mileage you want. I bought an 05 with heated seats and a moon roof for $3800 a few weeks ago. Super easy to get my two kids in.
I am not sure if you have taken Jav's recommendation of Saturn Vue to heart but it worth a further look.
Here is some recent chatter on the topic. I recommend reading through.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/school-me-on-the-saturn-vue/75404/page1/
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/what-am-i-forgetting-a-what-car-thread/79524/page1/
Your profile says Clearwater, FL. Without trying, I quickly found these examples.
'04 w/ 89k for $3,999
http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/4406596948.html
Wow, this one is a real base model with no power windows, no power mirrors and only an AM/FM radio (easily replaced.) It is very rare to see w/o the power options.
I would expect sale price to much closer to $3k, maybe even under like $2.8k
'05 w/ 98k asking $3.9k
http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/4397845706.html
Looks to have the popular options.
There is one odd thing here. As an '05, this should have white gauge faces. This has the black face like an '02 or '03 but does have the grey/black door trim of an '04+. In '02 and '03 the door trim was light grey and dark grey.
http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/ctd/4386783213.html
http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/ctd/4372753719.html
http://orlando.craigslist.org/ctd/4406426057.html
This could be the droid you are looking for.
It is most certainly a car you have overlooked and never considered. It is not exciting but it is what you asked for.
For Momma Bear, they have good crash ratings.
The pricing is cheap so you get a modern vehicle at the price of something else from last century.
All of the car is GM parts bin. The engine/trans is shared w/ Cobalt, HHR, etc. The suspension was carried over to the Chevy Equinox. Everything else is more than plentiful in JY's from low mileage examples with bad CVT transmissions.
As for size. I am 6'1" at 250# and fit comfortable upfront with room for a car seat directly behind me.
LainfordExpress wrote: Besides being almost no fun to drive, the Honda Element is a downright epic vehicle. Mid/low 20s mpg keeps it out of being in contention for best Honda ever. I used to think they were stupid, until I had a friend that owned one. But, as was mentioned above, the correct choice is Odyssey or Sienna.
I have an Odyssey and I agree with you. 
I have not had an Element but what I read here says the door configuration is not conducive to loading kids into car seats.
You can use Vice Grips to bang on a nail but it will never be as good as a real hammer.
I too will agree with others, a mini van is the right tool for the job in your case.
I hear you say you or the wife does not want one. I can only guess that is because it will make you look like dull, responsible adults with two kids. If you look at yourself through the reflection in the paint of any car, that could very well be what you see; ya know...because you have two kids.
In reply to Mr_Clutch42:
Maybe I just sit with the seat back leaned too much
Also could be we just use a huge car seat. YMMV
I know you said no Accords, but I found that it was easier to load a kid in the back of a coupe than it is in a sedan. In a two door, you are lifting the kid and setting him back into the car seat. In a sedan, you have to lift then across and then make a turn into the seat. It was far easier to load a child into the back of my 911 than into the WRX.
If I were you, I'd look for an Accord V6 coupe with a six speed.
In the not so fun, great mileage, manual equipped and huge rear seat category - Versa hatchback. I kinda like the funky french styling a bit. Later models have slightly more power w/6spd.
some good ideas here, and ill start by saying i appreciate the input very much. now, to reply to a few suggestions.
mazda 5. van. no. BUT, an autotrader search came up with a protege 5. any input on that???
element. no.
versa. pass.
John RW, no i don't want one because i already have one (06 odyssey). it gets awful mileage, and i don't need two.
saturn vue. im considering it. i dont like that saturns are no longer sold. my whole family, myself included, seems to have a 'saturns are cheap junk' opinion of them. i will go drive one and see though.
i am very interested in seeing how much id like a mazda 6. are these available as MT?
vibe/matrix. no. too small for my fat ass. kids would fit, i wouldn't.
i suppose i need to take the kids out to drive a fusion as well.
accord is on the 'go drive one' list as well. i guess im thinking of my old 94 when i say 'low slung'.
no BMW's. ive had two, they hated me. just no.
subarus dont get the mileage, and the AWD means more crap to wear out. it wouldnt matter if i needed the AWD, but i dont. i also dont like how they ride. even the outback i drove, which looked perfect, was awful to me.
i should clarify, my kids are forward facing at this point.
hyundai sonata available in MT???
mazda 3 wagon was too small. uncle has one. i just cant get the seat back enough or the wheel up enough.
passat. no VWs...i should have mentioned reliable twice...
so im left with: mazda 6, ford fusion, honda accord, and saturn vue. wow. its like an auction list at the car lot i worked at. and i dont think i would have recommended to the owner to buy any of them...
i think from here im going to go to carmax. i wont buy from them, but they should have a big group of cars to look at and drive.
thanks again, and ill keep you posted if i do decide to get anything.
-J0N
also, is an acura TSX a civic or an accord?
and do i want this: ?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=43064&endYear=2010&listingType=used&mpgRanges=31-40MPG%2C21-30MPG&engineCode=4CLDR&listingTypes=used&transmissionCode=MAN&sellerTypes=d&doorCode=4&sellerType=d&transmissionCodes=MAN&maxPrice=9000&showcaseListingId=0&doorCodes=4&showcaseOwnerId=67968&startYear=1999&engineCodes=4CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=500&listingId=363464004&Log=0
-J0N
A TSX is a European market Accord, which is smaller than the Ohio-designed USDM Accord.
Jon,
The Protege5 is even smaller than the Mazda3, you won't fit. The first generation Mazda6 is a great car, and available with a MT in every trim level. The 2.3L 4-cylinder isn't bad, but the 3.0L V6 is a downright nice car. Even better though, a Mazdaspeed6 might be in your price range. 263HP of turbocharged 2.3L ought to excite you. 
If you're considering mid-size sedans, I'd also have to throw the Nissan Maxima in the list. MT available, and the V6 is a sweetheart. Lots of performance upgrades available, too.
The Vue isn't cheap GM junk. It has the Ecotec motor in it (same as the Cobalt, and yes you can bolt the Cobalt SS blower to it), but still has the Saturn safety cage and plastic body (5-star crash rating in every test and won't dent). Both my rear-facing kids fit great, with cargo room to spare.
MINIzguy wrote: I think an E39 BMW would fit the bill just right. One of the six cylinder models will be able to get in the upper 20's on the highway and lower 20's in the city. A manual isn't too hard to find, and for $7k, you'll be able to get a well cared for example.
If buying an E39, the 530 is the way to go. The V8s are THIRSTY PIGS and maintenance nightmares at around 130k miles.
I still don't think it's going to get into the 30's but 24/28 is very doable. They sold a lot of manuals and they are very nice cars.
If it's only the two kids, almost nothing has as much back seat room or headroom of a 1st gen xB. Reliable as gravity, manual transmission should get 30 mpg easy, and your $ should find you a nice one. If you think they are too small it just means you have never been inside one.
jmthunderbirdturbo wrote: some good ideas here, and ill start by saying i appreciate the input very much. now, to reply to a few suggestions. hyundai sonata available in MT??? so im left with: mazda 6, ford fusion, honda accord, and saturn vue. wow. its like an auction list at the car lot i worked at. and i dont think i would have recommended to the owner to buy any of them...
Definitely check out the Maxima but also check out the Infiniti M35 and G35 also. The G35 sedan was available in a manual trans but it takes some effort to find them. That would be my top pick b/c RWD + MT + Jap reliability.
Some of the older Lexus' are also in your price range but no MT. I always liked the look of the GS sedan.
The newer Accords are not low slung like the old ones. However, they are not much fun to drive IMO but neither is the Vue IMO.
Might want to check out the older Acura TL and also the RL. They seem pretty big but no MT. The 1st gen RL was packed full of interesting Jap tech.
The Saab 9-5 is indeed pretty big inside.
The older Cadillacs are interesting and in the price range. They are also RWD + available in MT.
Here is a wild card - One of my neighbors has a Ford 500. No MT but it is big and rather boring to look at but not very expensive.
I've heard the kneejerk dismissal of VWs and Audis on this forum before and I just don't get it. My Passat has been great, I got the extended warranty and have used it but no more so than other vehicles I've owned (about 20 last count).
Do yourself a favor and reevaluate VW before tossing them out of contention.
Also, if safety is a factor I'd think real hard before putting my kids in a Xb. I got rid of a Corolla and was never comfortably with a Camry.
And in truly silly suggestion land (terrifying maintenance issues): I had a 2005 Phaeton for a few years that was the safest/roomiest car EVER. 
im not dismissing VWs and audis based on knee jerk. i worked at an auto shop before, and every time i saw one, it cost the owner $1000. every time. we had an audi come in for a simple issue of 'power rolling' in neutral. it had about 1hp rolling forwards at idle. should have been a simple valve body adjustment. nope. new VB, three new packs, and 4 solenoids. $980. im not dismissing them cause they break more, just cause they cost big $$ to fix when they do. she also had to replace her timing belt, literally a week later. the thing was peeling teeth. $500 in parts for waterpump, idlers, belt and cover bolts (missing when she got it). labor added another $400. $1900 in 18 days. i felt bad for her, too, cause i BEGGED her not to buy it. she brought it into me for a pre-purchase inspection, and i told her no. she used the repair sheet to talk him down quite a bit, but still.
im pretty sold on a mazda6, or a fusion, pending a test drive. it would be nice if ford made the v6 fusion in MT, so i could compare apples to apples on both the 6 and the 4 cylinder models. if they did make the ford v6 in manual, i haven't found one. i want to go drive both the 4cyl MT and the 6cyl MT mazda6, and see if the 5 MPG hit is worth the extra power. again, its just a DD im gonna put 20k a year on. i dont race, i dont track, i dont do anything. last time a shifted a car in anger was WELL before i got married and died.
Jav - i have driven an altima in my price range, wife and i rented an 09 and drove it from atlanta to clearwater, about 3 years ago. i didnt like it. dash was too high, car felt like grab bag of korean plastics. i simply didnt enjoy it. and the 4cyl in it was GUTLESS with the AT. i was literally afraid of on-ramps and merges. MT may be a bit better, but its not high on my list.
ive got no interest in driving the xB.
lexus/infinity. i have limited experience, the G20 i had a was like a Harley. drive it all week, fix it all weekend. ive never owned a lexu$.
the ford 500 is available in MT???
what older Cadillac is available MT??? the catera?
thanks for the input GRM, i guess i was trying to see if there was anything i was overlooking. there isnt.
-J0N
Not as if you haven't already made up your mind, but I have to agree with you 100% on the Mazda 6. If I could afford one, thats what I'd be driving myself. Just because a car is appliance reliable doesn't mean it inherently has to be Honda/Toyota boring.
One more thought... a friend of mine says his Pontiac G8 (Holden Commodore) gets 25 city, 35 highway. I think he is either full of crap or has rather poor math skills. But if he is truthing me, that would be a good option.
interwebz say 17/25 for V6, and the 6.2 is more like 18 tops. poor math is my guess.
-J0N
Honda CR-V with a manual trans. Sorta kinda fun I guess with a manual, but more practical than anything. Not really an SUV, not a wagon, incredible gas mileage for something of it's size and relative underpower-ment, tough as nails. I think 1st and 2nd gens came with a manual option. Should be no problem for both rear facing child seats, especially a 2nd gen. Both AWD or FWD could be had with a manual (except '97-98, they're all autos).
Or just suck it up and get a minivan. 
I was able to get two kids in car seats in/out of Foresters for years.
I think the newer '04/'05 versions are MUCH better cars all around, so that's what I recommend.
JohnRW1621 wrote: '04 w/ 89k for $3,999 http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/cto/4406596948.html Wow, this one is a real base model with no power windows, no power mirrors and only an AM/FM radio (easily replaced.) It is very rare to see w/o the power options. I would expect sale price to much closer to $3k, maybe even under like $2.8k
I've had my eye on this one for a wifey mobile. Somewhat similar situation to the OP (2 kids in car seats, focused on fuel economy) but I'm a bit less picky. I believe they had it listed at $4.5k a week ago. You think value is closer to $3k? If so, I may have to wave some cash at them and see if they bite. Sorry for the hijack!
The answer is always Miata. You just need to install a trunk rack to strap the kids' car seats to.
Flight Service wrote: The answer is always Miata. You just need to install a trunk rack to strap the kids' car seats to.
Miata rumble seat! Why has this not been a thing????
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