I'd really like to buy a Tundra 2WD, 4DR long box, but I'm the guy that bought a 4BR house for $36,000.
Times they are a changin'.
My son's father in law just bought a 4DR F-350 with all kinds of bells & whistles; $75,000.
Nice truck, but ......
I'd really like to buy a Tundra 2WD, 4DR long box, but I'm the guy that bought a 4BR house for $36,000.
Times they are a changin'.
My son's father in law just bought a 4DR F-350 with all kinds of bells & whistles; $75,000.
Nice truck, but ......
Driven5 wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: Yeah, it's all about the price gougingFTFY. Modern trucks don't appear to be priced on anything relating to actual manufacturing costs. So in that regard, you are right that you can't directly compare truck prices to pretty much any other category of vehicles short of exotics. Nevermind that the cheapest cars show just how little extra cost there really is to the manufacturer these days in adding such 'luxuries' as carpet, A/C, power windows/locks/mirrors,a second set of doors, etc.
The lack of understanding of basic economics in this thread is disheartening to say the least. It's "gouging" when they sell every one they can make, for decades on end? When light-duty pickups are the best-selling vehicles since what, the early 80s? It's called supply and demand. They charge that much because people are willing to pay that much. Manufacturing costs have ZERO to do with it. People have been saying that they are going to "price themselves out of the market" for years now, and it hasn't happened yet.
You want to talk about something that doesn't make sense? Dropping $100k-plus on a German luxury sedan that's going to depreciate like a berkeleying stone dropped in the Mariana Trench. At least trucks hold their value.
What's changed is people's wants. The half-ton crew cab is today's version of the Country Squires of my youth. Most every family (except mine) had one.
CAFE killed the BOF station wagon. Period.
But in 1974, a very nicely equipped wagon had p/w, pdl, cruise, and a/c. You could buy an F-150 XLT crew cab with just that equipment today for around $32k, which is about the average transaction price for a new passenger car.
Now people want King Ranch or Platinum levels of options instead. Ford/GM/RAM are not stupid. They take advantage of what people want, and charge them for it.
Knurled wrote:Keith Tanner wrote:When you are the entity stamping, casting, machining, etc... is there that big a difference? Mind you that this is the express reason why small trucks aren't made anymore. They cost almost the same amount of money to make but the expected MSRPs are much, much different.Knurled wrote:Yeah, it's all about the price of the raw materials. That's the only factor. I'd rather do the durability testing and engineering on a disposable Honda than a work truck.Keith Tanner wrote: You can't seriously compare a medium duty truck with a Honda Fit when it comes to cost. Ignoring the bolt-on toys like dashboard bedazzling, there's a lot more vehicle underneath.Steel is how much per pound?
R&D costs, as I mentioned, cannot be ignored. I'll bet the durability testing on a truck is a lot more expensive (time = money) than on the price leader car.
Also, you're dealing with bigger stuff. The size of the stamping and castings are bigger, which makes them more of a pain to deal with. There's more machining on a V8 than there is on a four. I'm not privy to this sort of info, but I'll bet the cost to produce a truck is a lot more than a small car. Then you have to transport it, and you're sure not packing as many 2500s on a transporter as you are Fits. It all adds up.
And yeah, economics. The manufacturers have to make an overall profit. Since small cars are viewed as cheap, they have razor thin (or negative) profit margins. Something's gotta balance that out. That's why Porsche makes Cayennes, so we can have GT3 RSs 
Personally, my truck has satellite radio, a stick shift and cloth seats. It's the perfect spec as far as I'm concerned. But I don't call my brother in law an idiot because his F150 has about an acre of leather inside. I'll call him an idiot for other reasons, but not that one It's what he wanted, he bought it, his wife uses it as a DD much of the time when it's not towing a crazy offroad buggy across state lines. Everyone's happy.
The dude who bought my prius sight unseen pulled up in a dodge truck that was probably $40k new. On the ride to the bank he said he put $50k into the truck on suspension and engine work, got like 9MPG. Was like here take my cash now, give me prius, didn't even look at the car.
I've narrowed down a truck purchase to a 2017 Silverado WT 1500, V8, tow package, vinyl floor, posi, 2WD, the tinted window/key fob option, $395 blue paint, steel wheels, and the double door option.
It kills me to pay $34,000 but it fits my car program and I do deliver a lot of stuff for emergencies. The other day I grabbed our 220,000 mile work truck and delivered a 900# emergency conveyor belt.
I can use our work truck but it is a POS and nasty inside. I also considered a 4x4 Colorado WT for $32,000. At 55 years old I am buying my first V8 vehicle. (Except for the $1500 Lincoln Town Car I bought off my dad and owned 9 months).
In reply to Tom_Spangler:
I never said modern trucks didn't have the most effective marketing strategy this side of the iPhone... But if the true demand was what you claim, they would NOT need to regularly be offered for 25℅ off in order to sell them all, as you so proudly (dubiously) proclaim. Please note that there are still 2016 F-150's, and nicely equipped ones at that, still sitting on dealer lots just begging to be sold. No, truck pricing is simply the biggest marketing charade in the auto industry.
I do my pricing for what I sell and sometimes I can get higher profit margins because they will pay my price. My material and labor is a factor but I raise my price if I know it's urgent and they WILL pay that price. Most times what the market will bear. Same with these trucks - people pay it.
On another note the WT I'm looking has to be ordered as nobody stocks the low end 4X2 WT trucks in the Chicago area.
4X2? I'm an anomaly.
Driven5 wrote: In reply to Tom_Spangler: I never said modern trucks didn't have the most effective marketing strategy this side of the iPhone... But if the true demand was what you claim, they would NOT need to regularly be offered for 25℅ off in order to sell them all, as you so proudly (dubiously) proclaim. Please note that there are still 2016 F-150's, and nicely equipped ones at that, still sitting on dealer lots just begging to be sold. No, truck pricing is simply the biggest marketing charade in the auto industry.
You're claiming this ephemeral 25% number and I'm the one making dubious claims? OK. Here's an actual fact: Pickups are the top-selling vehicles in America. Yes, they put money on the hoods sometimes. They do that with every vehicle.
As for there still being 2016 F-150s on the lots, you are correct. There are currently over 100 within 100 miles of me. There are also over 100 2016 Foci, 83 2016 Fusions, 83 2016 Mustangs, and over 100 2016 Edges. So it's not exactly unique to trucks.
Trust me, I work in marketing. We wish we had the power to do what you are saying. People buy trucks because they like them. Also, not for nothing, but new trucks are pretty amazing vehicles.
In reply to Furious_E: This X10. 
I know a truck should be making you money to pay for itself but for those that want something that'll be used to tow a dozen times a year and it already has 200k on the clock for around 10k that seems absurd. Especially how much crap American trucks get for being rusted out and falling apart after 100k in miles. 
One of these days I'll bite the bullet though. 
A modern truck with four doors replaces two vehicles.
Many home and land owners need a truck. While it looks silly in passing to see someone commuting in one, it's more efficient than dad having a utility truck and a car.
A pimpy new truck carries all of the status that new car buyers are looking for...especially in the South.
Trucks are the reason the Big 3 are still around, and this thread would'nt be here without the want.
The quintessential American vehicle.
Why are trucks so expensive? Because most of them are write offs as business expenses. Back in 03 I bought a F250 XLT diesel extended cab 8 foot bed for $38,400. Wrote it off for 4 years. In 07, they were rolling out the 08s with the new 6.2L diesel. I picked up a 07 leftover F350 Lariat extended cab, diesel, 8 foot bed, leather, woodgrain, oversized 18" alloys, and a bunch of other useless in a work truck crap for $37,300. Sticker was low 50s, and the truck was parked next to an identical 08 that had a sticker of $57K. That was 9 years ago. My accountant keeps telling me to sell the one I got, pocket the money, and go buy a new one so I can have the write off. In 9 years I have shown this thing no mercy. Its a work truck. I've done brakes, ball joints, rear brake backing plates, tires twice, batteries twice, and a $200 FICM. Now the airbag light is on and I will most likely need a $300 clock spring. $50K for a truck. No thanks. I'll drive this into the ground first. What I really don't get is why are box trucks so cheap compared to pick up trucks. My buddy just bought a new dually 14 foot GMC box truck with a 6.0L for $38K. Cab is every bit as nice as any pickup and it comes with a 14' box with shelves, exterior compartments, a ladder, and a roof rack. He could have gotten the Ford with a 5.4 for $36K, but I convinced him to get the GMC...because LS engines are awesome.
Let me get this straight. It's a four door V8, 4wd, 10k lb towing, fire-breathing luxury vehicle. It's less than $50k.
How is that overpriced? Don't tell me about truck prices in the 1980s. They don't make trucks like that anymore because nobody would buy them.
I get it. I also wouldn't buy a car for more than $20k.
Keith Tanner wrote: You can't seriously compare a medium duty truck with a Honda Fit when it comes to cost. Ignoring the bolt-on toys like dashboard bedazzling, there's a lot more vehicle underneath. Yes, big heavy work vehicles cost money. They always have. The old man "get off my lawn" griping about how trucks are too big and too tall and too expensive and have too much torque doesn't reflect what the market is actually asking for.
I can and I did compare them Keith. So what? They both have four wheels, brakes, an engine, transmission, and the ability to haul poop. It was more of a comparison of creature comforts than capabilities that I was hinting at. Thanks though.
I understand they never sell for MSRP....the sticker shock is what got me. Like others have said I remember not 10 years ago a fully loaded Z71 Silverado was right around $32k at MSRP.
And yea I get that's the market and people are willing to pay for them. Just like holy E36 M3 people will actually pay for something that has not really changed that much over the past two decades? I'll stop complaining for Keith though :)
Trucks have changed a lot in the past 2 decades. You're just making E36 M3 up now lol.
1988RedT2 wrote: Agree truck prices are crazy. According to NADAGuides, in 1985 a longbed styleside F-150 with a 302 V8 and A/C had an MSRP of right around $8k. A base LTD with the same options was over a thousand more. Trucks were cheaper than all but the cheapest cars.
What you're missing is that the LTD and 80s F-150 both no longer exist, if you want a big soft RWD car you go buy a F-150 now. Even a dead base 2017 F-150 is a much more refined and precisely engineered vehicle than anything with a Ford badge in 1985. At that time no amount of money would buy an aluminum bodied 1/2 ton pickup that drives like an old Cadillac and performs like a period 3/4 ton.
I don't like the way they've gone, especially the CAFE workaround size increases that make them impossible to park in the city, but it's not hard to explain any aspect of the modern American pickup truck.
In reply to Tom_Spangler:
Yes, there are a handfull of what I would consider decently optioned 2017 F-150's at my local dealership advertised for over 20% off right now, with at least one leftover 2016 for over 25% off. And that's with no big special events going on. On a good holiday weekend it's not hard to find 25% 'discount' offers. They're not usually marketed as such, but that's what $10k or more can easily equate to.
Nowhere do manufacturers/dealers put more money on the hood more often than full-size pickups, and they STILL make the most profits and largest margins on them. Such extreme pricing games make it pretty obvious that the claimed demand isn't in actually there to even come close to supporting the MSRP. However, by using the sales volume claims without accounting for the widespread and often heavy price discounting, the marketeers and salesmen can try to make it seem that the MSRP is justified based on this misrepresentation of perceived demand. Call it "basic economics" if you want, even if it's not actually based on supply vs true demand, but that type of intentional misleading in an attempt to inflate the sell price is a form of gouging in my humble opinion. And yes, I understand that most of the auto industry is based to some degree or another on this variable pricing model/scheme, but full-size trucks is where I'd argue that it's by far the most flagrantly exhibited.
You also seem to have contradicted yourself. The quantities of leftover 2016's would seem to imply that either the full-size trucks don't actually "sell every one they can make", or every other vehicle inherently does so already too simply because they will eventually manage to sell each one they (over) produced. So if not a "dubious" claim, it was at the very least creative marketing-speak.
Now I'm not saying that modern full-size trucks aren't shockingly well developed and capable vehicles, that they don't serve a very important function for many people, that there isn't substantial demand for them to be well equipped, or that the market doesn't support surprisingly high selling prices in relation to their sales volume. Just that that they play the most onerous pricing games of all with full-size trucks, to great effect I might add, and I'm calling B.S. on it.
I have one. I have been on the "hater" side for many years. I bought a 2016 Dodge (gasp!) 3.0 diesel 1500 crew with 6.5' bed last year. It's awesome. I commute in it 60 miles a day getting 24 MPG (3.92 gears, 4x4). It's so quiet and comfortable, we use it for family trips instead of the GTI, which is loud inside compared to the truck (probably tires).
I'm not a truck brand loyalist, and could definitely see myself checking out the '18 F150 with 3.0 diesel. I got mine in Idaho for $40k. I struggled with how expensive it was, but F it. I've got a '72 Airstream I'm restoring, and it gets decent mileage for the commute. Seats five comfortably....fantastic vehicle.
Datsun310Guy wrote: I do my pricing for what I sell and sometimes I can get higher profit margins because they will pay my price. My material and labor is a factor but I raise my price if I know it's urgent and they WILL pay that price. Most times what the market will bear. Same with these trucks - people pay it. On another note the WT I'm looking has to be ordered as nobody stocks the low end 4X2 WT trucks in the Chicago area. 4X2? I'm an anomaly.
You need to come down near where I live in the South Suburbs. There are several dealers down here that carry 4x2 WT trucks on the lot.
I'd like to see that Honda Fit tow a race trailer. Or anything, really.
In reply to SyntheticBlinkerFluid:
Throw me a dealer name - the guy in Frankfort has all $45,000 trucks.
DirtyBird222 wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: You can't seriously compare a medium duty truck with a Honda Fit when it comes to cost. Ignoring the bolt-on toys like dashboard bedazzling, there's a lot more vehicle underneath. Yes, big heavy work vehicles cost money. They always have. The old man "get off my lawn" griping about how trucks are too big and too tall and too expensive and have too much torque doesn't reflect what the market is actually asking for.I can and I did compare them Keith. So what? They both have four wheels, brakes, an engine, transmission, and the ability to haul poop. It was more of a comparison of creature comforts than capabilities that I was hinting at. Thanks though. I understand they never sell for MSRP....the sticker shock is what got me. Like others have said I remember not 10 years ago a fully loaded Z71 Silverado was right around $32k at MSRP. And yea I get that's the market and people are willing to pay for them. Just like holy E36 M3 people will actually pay for something that has not really changed that much over the past two decades? I'll stop complaining for Keith though :)
If we're just looking at creature comforts, then there's no real difference between an M5 and an optioned up Hyundai. And heck, a 911 GT3 RS should be the cheapest of all!
You need to drive a modern truck compared to one that's 20 years old to see where the money's going. Even the difference between my 2010 Dodge 2500 and my father in law's 2006 Dodge 3500 is pretty staggering. There have been some serious advances. Trucks are what the Big Three do really well, you can see the effects of a half century of cutthroat competition and customer feedback. And, probably, fairly generous R&D budgets. Toyota isn't quite there yet if you're looking for a tool, but they're probably the main driver pushing the truck marketplace to feel more like cars.
Teh E36 M3 wrote: I have one. I have been on the "hater" side for many years. I bought a 2016 Dodge (gasp!) 3.0 diesel 1500 crew with 6.5' bed last year. It's awesome. I commute in it 60 miles a day getting 24 MPG (3.92 gears, 4x4). It's so quiet and comfortable, we use it for family trips instead of the GTI, which is loud inside compared to the truck (probably tires). I'm not a truck brand loyalist, and could definitely see myself checking out the '18 F150 with 3.0 diesel. I got mine in Idaho for $40k. I struggled with how expensive it was, but F it. I've got a '72 Airstream I'm restoring, and it gets decent mileage for the commute. Seats five comfortably....fantastic vehicle.
The f150 diesel is what I'm trying to hold out for. How's your Ram? I'm assuming that 24mpg is mixed driving.
Datsun310Guy wrote: In reply to SyntheticBlinkerFluid: Throw me a dealer name - the guy in Frankfort has all $45,000 trucks.
Are you looking at a specific brand?
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