I have seen the future (GM) and it is brilliant.

As part of the Buick GMC model year introduction I was fortunate enough to be invited to Michigan this week. For a guy whose head is made up of gears this was quite an experience. First of all the GM Test Track at Milford is the real deal. Like Heaven for car people. Absolutely overrun with all manner of different and interesting vehicles. Most in camo but easily recognized. All the stuff that you think would be there and some that you would never guess. And the people were FARKING AWESOME. Doing what we love and proud of their work. The quality and innovation of the new stuff is stellar. Light years advanced in all ways. The future is very near and it is brilliant. What a time to be a car guy! And a huge shout out to the people of the Delta Lansing Assembly Plant for their genuine hospitality and visible pride of workmanship. The place was spotless, been running three shifts every day since 2005. All manner of incredible huge stamping and welding rigs. Robotic vehicles doing just in time deliveries. Incredible paint quality...These folks were damn proud of what they did and now I am too. I'll tell every person considering a new Acadia, Enclave or Traverse about the people that build them and where they do it.

Sounds like an awesome time.

Years ago I ran many an autocross set up at the Milford Proving Grounds. The test track ran right by the course so every so often you would see some test cars go by. Interesting stuff.

I would like for this to be true, but I am far from sold. The domestic three have never wanted for the tools, technology or talent to build world class cars, and yet they never have. I can only speculate why this is the case.

I started a war on this board in 2005 when I predicted and welcomed the demise of GM; their products were an embarasment to the nation. My hope was that the ensuing shock would rattle the industry to its core and the USA automakers would then move on to start building world class cars. I an still not seeing the fundamental shift from the "New GM" that tells me they are on track.

In reply to NOHOME:

OK, so tell me specifically what is missing from a car like the current turbo Buick Regals that prevents it from being "world class." What does the competition have that it doesn't? Also, please name some of these "world class" cars that are so beyond what GM is doing.

I'm no GM fanboy, but I think a lot of people, due to 20+ years of domestic mediocrity, lost their ability to perceive and think objectively about what is currently being built.

NOHOME wrote: I would like for this to be true, but I am far from sold. The domestic three have never wanted for the tools, technology or talent to build world class cars, and yet they never have. I can only speculate why this is the case. I started a war on this board in 2005 when I predicted and welcomed the demise of GM; their products were an embarasment to the nation. My hope was that the ensuing shock would rattle the industry to its core and the USA automakers would then move on to start building world class cars. I an still not seeing the fundamental shift from the "New GM" that tells me they are on track.

No manufacturer builds only "world class cars."

I am posting simply to express 60-80% disagreement with NOHOME.

Haters are going to hate

dean1484 wrote: Haters are going to hate

And Realists will realize that even if you take a brilliant concept and then dumb it down to the easiest way to get it down a line full of people on the line who are only concerned with doing as little as they can get away with and then going home as quickly as they can, then you won't be getting a world class car.

Do you have any examples of innovative, world-class features being taken out of vehicles because the line workers refused to assemble it? How about examples from VW, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat or any of the other automakers in the world that has to deal with labor unions/line workers?

JamesMcD wrote: In reply to NOHOME: OK, so tell me specifically what is missing from a car like the current turbo Buick Regals that prevents it from being "world class." What does the competition have that it doesn't? Also, please name some of these "world class" cars that are so beyond what GM is doing. I'm no GM fanboy, but I think a lot of people, due to 20+ years of domestic mediocrity, lost their ability to perceive and think objectively about what is currently being built.

I strongly agree with your last sentence and would be lying if I said that did not contribute something to my mindset. I would argue that it has been closer to 40 years and as such, GM has skipped two generations of customers.

But on a more fundamental level:

GM cut youth out of their business plan as far back as the late 60's and early 70's... "You will get the Vega and you will like it until you can afford a Buick or an Oldsmobile". Of course Toyota, Mazda and Honda were around to accept us with our money and kept us.

While on the subject of youth, the Buick has always been one of GMs better built products. Sales have historically supported this. The problem is that the sales have been to a demographic that is buying their last car before getting in the hearse. Buick is and always has been perceived as an old person's car; its reliable AND boring. Realize that marketing, image and perception are just as important as engineering and manufacturing and you will see where GM is still working on the problem. They might have product, but they dont have public perception. I dont think GM realize this.

World class cars... Cadillac used to be the symbol of automotive quality and a status statement.Somewhere along the line, GM decided that it was going to not go head to head with the Mercedes and BMWs of the world and just concentrate on the domestic market by selling soft and cheap cars that coasted on the Cadillac name. Cut-rate and luxury tend to be mutually exclusive concepts and the results on a world opinion basis reflect the results. Cadillac could do much more if they were willing and able to take the luxury oponents on with an unapologetic head to head pricetag. Why do they not do so? If people wont buy their top end luxury cars for the same as they pay for a Merc or BMW, then GM needs to figure it out and fix it.

More world class stuff: Luxury cars have rear wheel drive. Right or wrong, it seems to be the dress code, so GM should figure it out and buid a few more.

Corvettes... (and a large amount of what GM sells abroad) any chance they might figure out that people in foreign countries drive on the other side of the road and are not likely to give it up anytime soon? How "world class" it it to sell you a car and ignore your customs. People notice this E36 M3. And get offended. And hold it against the rest of your products. Why can't they sell the Vette or a Pick-up for that matter, configured for the "world" market. How many RHD cars do we import to the US?

Most importanly, I just don't see the new roots for the GM customer pipeline. Youth is still not factored into their demographics and hence I just don't see any excitement from GM. I do realize that this stuff takes time, and as I said I HOPE that they get it and that it will come around, but I personally don't see or feel it.

Blaming mediocre design on assembly line workers is laughable.

What's Apple's share price again?

And meanwhile, my '81 X-11 ran circles around all those Japanese crap boxes, and even the VAUNTED GTi. People started believing all the hype from the people trying to justify buying foreign cars.

The 911S my dad had was in constant need of attention, and the BMW Bavaria my mom had went through intake manifolds seemingly at every oil change.

Too many people believe what the marketing campaign tells them too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIWKytq_q4

racerfink wrote: And meanwhile, my '81 X-11 ran circles around all those Japanese crap boxes, and even the VAUNTED GTi. People started believing all the hype from the people trying to justify buying foreign cars. The 911S my dad had was in constant need of attention, and the BMW Bavaria my mom had went through intake manifolds seemingly at every oil change. Too many people believe what the marketing campaign tells them too...

Bravo!!

I've owned nothing but GM for 20+ years. I won't say every product is perfect, but every manufacturer has had products that weren't good.

On the other side, this board has gotten me to open my eyes to things outside GM. I find myself looking at ads for Miata's and E30's....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/

Vigo wrote: Blaming mediocre design on assembly line workers is laughable. What's Apple's share price again?

When design has to be approved by the Union and when the design is constrained to assembly line limitations (mostly human) then yes, mediocre design is caused by assembly limitations whether it be equipment or human indifference.

The bottom line is that most people don't care any more and I'm not just talking auto assemblers here. There's very little pride in workmanship in any field anymore. I am downright amazed when I find even a yard boy who is an artist in their profession.

Cars are designed to the weakest link and present day weakest link is the union & their limitations. Could the union demand excellence to be a member? Yes! Do they? No!

To me that would appear to be a big plus the unions could bring. Their workers could & should be better than non members, but instead they put the worker first to the detriment of the product. (and the rest was just an anti-union rant that comes from real world experience but I erased it because the nonunion people already know it and the union guys don't care)

And my Apple stock is performing quite nicely thank you! My microsoft on the other hand hasn't been well for quite some time now.

Now with all that said, I do believe the GM products of today are better than they were in the 80's, not that that's saying much. The overall average seems to be better, but world class they are not.

I like the suspension bits off the Solstice cause they are nice for Locosts.

2002maniac wrote: http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/08/17/chicken-littles-second-gm-bankruptcy-the-gold-medal-for-silly-op-ed-pieces/

Could you first define what a "world class car" is?

I love my 2012 Sierra SLE

that is all

wow they won't make a vette with wrong hand drive and you hold it against them. it is our car, made primarily for us - americans - who drive on the opposite side of the road from japanese and british people. not sure if they flat out do not make RHD cars, but the guys on top gear(UK) love to talk about how mercedes and bmw don't make their favorite rides in RHD. so the corvette must be world class.

world class car = scion frs - according to NOHOME. it must be the only one because it was good enough and bargain basement enough for him to buy.

Strawmen...strawmen everywhere!!!

GM is building awesome cars. Plain and simple. So far, not one of the haters has been able to validate their hate with any fact of substance. Yes, caddy powers the fronts...yes, vettes are only correct side drive. But I'd rather have either if those over a Taurus, Chrysler 200, or almost anything Japanese (new that is).

Tell me why I want a cvt Nissan? Why do I want a new 3 series soundbite machine? Take the frisbee twins out of the equation, and why would I even set foot on a Toyota dealership?

There are no answers there...at all.

CTSV, Regal GS, Cruze eco, sonic Turbo, new SS, new Caprice...they're doing it right. Haters gonna hate.

Cool to hear government motors is doing better, the new cadillacs look like nice cars.

The problem with GM is they left too much of a bad taste in peoples mouth to be forgiven. My dad had an 84 pickup which was junk and had crap paint. My moms 97 might be a better truck than the 84 but it still has crap paint and almost all of the interior trim pieces are broken off in 140000miles. The paint will pock if you look at it hard enough, it doesn't adhere to the primer. My mercedes is 34 years old with 140000miles and all of the interior trim bits/lights/electric windows work.

And my step-mom's '96 328Ci needed to go back constantly to the dealer to fix the automatic top. Like every three months, constantly. She couldn't wait to get rid of it. My '96 Chevy Silverado Ext. cab is almost at 239k, and still going strong.

BTW, did your parents cars' sit outside, or were they garaged?

2002maniac wrote: http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/

Well, at least this time I amnot alone in predicting doom and gloom for GM. This editorial speaks to my point.

GM has some of the best technical assets on the planet. That is not up for dispute.

So how do they consistently perpetrate one market fiasco after another?

And to those that still think that leaving the steering on the wrong side is OK, how many Japanese or Korean cars are marketed in NA with RH Controls?

Maybe we should take a hint from those that are winning at the game rather than defending what is not working?

My main exposure to NA cars is via the rental fleet. And while it would seem like a great opportunity to showcase ability and entice one to go home and buy the product, they tend to have the opposite effect.

As to those who call me a "Hater" I am not clear on your logic ( "Hater" being a 14 year old's expression there may not be any). If I am standing at Grandpas deathbed and express the opinion the "he aint gonna make it", would you call me a "Grandpa Hater"?

I consider myself an "observer". I simply feel that I am observing another slow motion train wreck.