I have seen the future (GM) and it is brilliant.

we have Chevy Sonics here at work as delivery vehicles.

i was really impressed with the suspension, for about a month.

then it turned into the same sloppy rattly mess that i was used to from driving aveos.

DaveEstey wrote: Eh, when I look at the biggest sellers in the nation, pickups and mid-size sedans, the GM products don't really excite me. The Ferd trucks have dominated the market forever now, but I'm excited to see what the next generation Silverado has to offer.

I don't know about the last few years, but if you look at the numbers, GM has typically outsold Ford. I know they say the F150 is the all time best seller among trucks, but GM splits their sales between Chev and GMC

belteshazzar wrote: we have Chevy Sonics here at work as delivery vehicles. i was really impressed with the suspension, for about a month. then it turned into the same sloppy rattly mess that i was used to from driving aveos.

I don't think that it's fair to compare a company fleet vehicle to anything. You know how they're treated.

Zomby Woof wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Eh, when I look at the biggest sellers in the nation, pickups and mid-size sedans, the GM products don't really excite me. The Ferd trucks have dominated the market forever now, but I'm excited to see what the next generation Silverado has to offer.

I don't know about the last few years, but if you look at the numbers, GM has typically outsold Ford. I know they say the F150 is the all time best seller among trucks, but GM splits their sales between Chev and GMC

And Ford splits their sales between the F150 and F250.

bravenrace wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Eh, when I look at the biggest sellers in the nation, pickups and mid-size sedans, the GM products don't really excite me. The Ferd trucks have dominated the market forever now, but I'm excited to see what the next generation Silverado has to offer.

I don't know about the last few years, but if you look at the numbers, GM has typically outsold Ford. I know they say the F150 is the all time best seller among trucks, but GM splits their sales between Chev and GMC

And Ford splits their sales between the F150 and F250.

well, except thats not really a direct comparison now is it? Most truck makers sell multiple tiers of vehicles. Ford F150 sales are their sales in that segment. Chevy/GMC each has a truck in that same segment. If you combined GMC and Chevy sales for trucks in the SAME SEGMENT, Id bet there would be a much closer race for the title.

racerfink wrote: And my step-mom's '96 328Ci needed to go back constantly to the dealer to fix the automatic top. Like every three months, constantly. She couldn't wait to get rid of it. My '96 Chevy Silverado Ext. cab is almost at 239k, and still going strong. BTW, did your parents cars' sit outside, or were they garaged?

Individual experiences only matter to those who's experience it is. For instance, I have a 2000 Sierra. It's a piece of drek. I love it to drive, but it doesn't go a week without something breaking. The trans needed a $1500 rebuild at 118k miles. The engine knocks constantly - Well known LS piston slap issue. I've replace both window regulators, the radio no longer works, after the lighting went bad, I've replace the drivers side door hinges twice in the past 2 years, it's rusting like it's made out of a tin can, etc...
Not really the same experience as you, huh? That's why individual experience really doesn't mean anything.
I also had a brand new Solstice GXP for 52k miles. It was at the dealer a lot. That kind of experience doesn't sell me on their product, and the fact that the gooberment still has a lot of stock in the company for reasons they can't explain, I won't buy GM any time soon. But that has nothing to do with anyone else, because it's my experience, not theirs.

Yes, but Chevy/GMC half tons are not the same as Ford's F150 half ton and F250 3/4 ton. Why not lump all the half, 3/4, and one tons together then?

The Ford adds tout the F150 (no mention of F250 or F350) as the best selling truck in America.

4cylndrfury wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Eh, when I look at the biggest sellers in the nation, pickups and mid-size sedans, the GM products don't really excite me. The Ferd trucks have dominated the market forever now, but I'm excited to see what the next generation Silverado has to offer.

I don't know about the last few years, but if you look at the numbers, GM has typically outsold Ford. I know they say the F150 is the all time best seller among trucks, but GM splits their sales between Chev and GMC

And Ford splits their sales between the F150 and F250.

well, except thats not really a direct comparison now is it? Most truck makers sell multiple tiers of vehicles. Ford F150 sales are their sales in that segment. Chevy/GMC each has a truck in that same segment. If you combined GMC and Chevy sales for trucks in the SAME SEGMENT, Id bet there would be a much closer race for the title.

No, if you are trying to determine who sells the most full size pickup trucks, you just need to include all the full size pickup trucks each of them sells.

Appleseed wrote: Yes, but Chevy/GMC half tons are not the same as Ford's F150 half ton and F250 3/4 ton. Why not lump all the half, 3/4, and one tons together then? The Ford adds tout the F150 (no mention of F250 or F350) as the best selling truck in America.

What I'm saying is that GM sells trucks comparable to the F250 and F350, they just don't have a totally different body style. I have a Sierra 2500, which has virtually the same capabilities as an F250. So if you are going to include all GM trucks, you have to include all Ford trucks. If you are comparing the F-150 to GM, then you have to include only GM half tons, Chevy and GMC.

According to the sales charts provided by each respective company. Neither separates the 3/4 and 1-ton vehicle sales.

Ford F-Series sales are 408,656 through August http://media.ford.com/images/10031/august12sales.pdf

Chevy Silverado sales are 261,775 GMC Sierra sales are 98,545 http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Sep/gmsales.html

total is 360,320 for GM

It should be noted that F-Series sales are up 12.9% comepared to 3.5% and 5.5% for the Chevy and GMC respectively.

rotard wrote:

belteshazzar wrote: we have Chevy Sonics here at work as delivery vehicles. i was really impressed with the suspension, for about a month. then it turned into the same sloppy rattly mess that i was used to from driving aveos.

I don't think that it's fair to compare a company fleet vehicle to anything. You know how they're treated.

even a month though? i meant that literally. maybe my standards are too high.

only time will tell if the dashboard is lit up like a christmas tree with failures by 50k miles the way the aveos were too.

bravenrace wrote:

Appleseed wrote: Yes, but Chevy/GMC half tons are not the same as Ford's F150 half ton and F250 3/4 ton. Why not lump all the half, 3/4, and one tons together then? The Ford adds tout the F150 (no mention of F250 or F350) as the best selling truck in America.

What I'm saying is that GM sells trucks comparable to the F250 and F350, they just don't have a totally different body style. I have a Sierra 2500, which has virtually the same capabilities as an F250. So if you are going to include all GM trucks, you have to include all Ford trucks. If you are comparing the F-150 to GM, then you have to include only GM half tons, Chevy and GMC.

Totally agree.

rotard wrote: Lol, I love the ignorant GM Hate this board has.

You have a great point and it speaks directly to GM's challenge. GM not only needs to stop the hate, but convert it to love. Ignoring the "Haters" (mostly pissed off ex customers) is not really an option.

I have had a lot of GM SUVs as rental cars as of late, and have really liked them.

NOHOME good job wrecking ls1fieros thread into yet another GM hate thread.

Anyway, two of our last three cars purchased brand new were GM:

07 Solstice GXP vert

09 Solstice GXP coupe (still have)

and 2012 Wrangler.

Between the two Pontiacs we put around 46k and were in the dealer twice (once each). Once for a recall and the other time for an rattle under power that turned out to be the exhaust. Both felt very solid (granted the coupe only has around 7k miles).

All told I currently have 10 GM products with the years stretching back to the 40s, but I also own cars and trucks from many other brands....they all have their strengths and weaknesses. The only reason I own 10 now is because they grew on me. I actually used to be a Toyota guy until they stopped making anything exciting (recently released FRS excluded).

I really do plan to vote with my wallet.

To the haters, try to talk me out of:

1. If I can afford it (and Im really going to try), my first option is as inexpensive a Regal GS as can be afforded with 3 pedals (probably will have to forgo the bigger wheels and brembos).

2. More likely, Cruze Eco with the RS wheels (I know they will be extra).

Honestly, please point me towards a turbo sedan with an available manual from another mfr that would end up being a better car for the dollar.

Chances are, you wont be able to. Just a theory, though I havent really tried to comparison shop much. No, I dont want you to tell me how much 'stang I can get for that money, or what similar used car might be cheaper. I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

According to Edmunds:

"Full Size Trucks

The Ford F-150 has been a perennial best-selling vehicle in the U.S. for more than 30 years, and the truck's steady evolution in terms of power and features has helped it retain top-dog status. Variety also keeps the F-150 ahead of the pack, since it's available in 10 different trim levels (from bare-bones basic to leather-trimmed luxurious), with three different bed styles and a selection of engines that range from a twin-turbo V6 to a 6.2-liter V8. And Ford's Sync technology — which makes connecting and using portable devices easy and offers other free features — makes the F-150 stand out from the competition even more."

4cylndrfury wrote: I really do plan to vote with my wallet. To the haters, try to talk me out of: 1. If I can afford it (and Im really going to try), my first option is as inexpensive a Regal GS as can be afforded with 3 pedals (probably will have to forgo the bigger wheels and brembos). 2. More likely, Cruze Eco with the RS wheels (I know they will be extra). Honestly, please point me towards a turbo sedan with an available manual from another mfr that would end up being a better car for the dollar. Chances are, you wont be able to. Just a theory, though I havent really tried to comparison shop much. No, I dont want you to tell me how much 'stang I can get for that money, or what similar used car might be cheaper. I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

Gee, good thing you didn't limit us much!

the point is that GM is the only one who offers what I want, at a price that I can afford (well, in fairness, theyre the only ones who offer what the Mrs will accept. If I had my way, a Frisbee twin would be in the driveway already ). I want a turbo, a manual, and she says its gotta be a sedan...which, for utility's sake, as a DD, it really must be. It also cant be a gazillion bucks.

Cotton wrote: NOHOME good job wrecking ls1fieros thread into yet another GM hate thread. Anyway, two of our last three cars purchased brand new were GM: 07 Solstice GXP vert 09 Solstice GXP coupe (still have) and 2012 Wrangler. Between the two Pontiacs we put around 46k and were in the dealer twice (once each). Once for a recall and the other time for an rattle under power that turned out to be the exhaust. Both felt very solid (granted the coupe only has around 7k miles). All told I currently have 10 GM products with the years stretching back to the 40s, but I also own cars and trucks from many other brands....they all have their strengths and weaknesses. The only reason I own 10 now is because they grew on me. I actually used to be a Toyota guy until they stopped making anything exciting (recently released FRS excluded).

This is a "discussion" board right? (check the banner on the left if you are not sure) LS1fiero posted his message on a discussion board and we have been discussing. For the most part, in quite a civil tone.

Have I broken some rules of civility in language or tone that I should be aware of or am I just not allowed to express a thought that does not agree with yours? Its not like my thoughts or opinions are going to have any effect on the copanies performance.

I am glad that GM has customers. You seem happy. I want GM to do well and nowhere in my post have I said otherwise. I have simply mentioned that I do not think they will do well based on my observations and understandings, however limited they are. I did tell you all they were going down five years ago on this very board and you all laughed. I am applying the same observations to the company as I did then and seeing the same things.

4cylndrfury wrote: I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

Focus ST? Mazdaspeed 3? Dodge Dart?

Don't forget the upcoming Fiesta ST too.

bravenrace wrote: According to Edmunds: "Full Size Trucks The Ford F-150 has been a perennial best-selling vehicle in the U.S. for more than 30 years

The last time I compared 1/2 ton trucks (it was a few years ago), GM had consistently been outselling Ford. The reason I looked was because GM trucks drastically outnumber Fords around here, so I wondered how that was possible. Did Ford sell more F150's than Chev? Yes, more than GMC? Yes. More than GM, no.

GM needs to get on the global platform thing and stay there. It's best cars thus far have been those made for other markets. The company seems to get excited whenever it sells a bunch of bland FWD cars to senior citizens, then makes millions of them, only have them drag down its reputation.

Kill GMC, make better trucks, beat Ford to a 30mpg average pickup or any other manufacturer to having the only small pickup in America with a turbo diesel.

93EXCivic wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

Focus ST? Mazdaspeed 3? Dodge Dart?

I have a friend who is a Chrysler dealer tech. I would stay away from the Dart for a while if I were you.