I learn you: Inspecting a flip car, bodywork edition

In reply to pimpm3:

Are you sitting down? $5000.00 berkeleying dollars!!!

SnowMongoose wrote: Good info! Two questions though: How did you end up with a pen from Florida? Was this your first time hand modeling?

It's from Grandpa's Chrome shop. Didn't even realize the subliminal advertising until you pointed it out!

And no, I have extensively hand modeled.

kanaric wrote: if you keep doing this you should do a youtube series.

That's a really, really good idea, actually. I have a GoPro, I can make a half way decent walk-around video. Hmmm...

Great write up!

This goes to show you that you can't really trust Carfax like some people blindly do. I mean, most of us know better, but it serves as a nice reminder why you must inspect a vehicle thoroughly. This is the kind of car that someone might buy their daughter as a 1st car, and get burned. It's just not safe.

I get where you're coming from, but on a car this age some of this seems EXCESSIVELY nitpicky. By these standards I don't know if you'd buy any of my cars. I doubt you'll find any daily driver type car of that era without similar spots of peeling clear/corrosion on the wheels, or the sort of minor repair work you show. Same goes for the grimy window channel, cars driven by normals that get parked on the street usually just look like that. I also don't know how you're reaching the conclusion that the car was "hit hard", "totaled", or suffered serious frame, drivetrain or suspension damage from just this minimal visual inspection, and not actually getting the car up on a lift or alignment rack and finding out for sure. I can understand that you passed because there wasn't any room to make money on it, I would have made the same choice in the same situation, but this seems like more of a problem of a seller with high expectations and a car with a hyped up market than the fault of the actual vehicle.

Are some people actually complaining that Jav went and found a wrecked car being sold as a non-wrecked car?

Tough crowd!

In reply to tuna55:

I just don't think that, as 15 year old appliance cars go, it meets a reasonable definition of "wrecked". I think most of us here already know that beyond the typical term of a new car loan/full coverage insurance, a carfax report means about as much as a letter from the tooth fairy.

Are you sitting down? $5000.00 berkeleying dollars!!!

Haha, go figure. I was going to add that the only way to make money on that car (which didnt have actual glaring issues to fix) would be to get it for <3k and then try to sell it as one of the excellent 5-6k ones to someone who didn't know any better.

But i figured my post was already too long.

In reply to Josh:

Maybe you needed to drive it, but trust me man, this car was beat. There's no way that chassis was square anymore, it was downright unsafe to drive.

Cosmetics are cosmetics. My DD probably has at least half the flaws of this car, yet is 7 years newer. Hell, my actual last flip, the Saab, had an entire quarter panel of a completely different color. That's not the point of this post.

The point was to look for clues and signs to determine a cars real condition! This thing was a totaled out pig wearing fresh lipstick that I wouldn't buy (or sell) for more than a grand and frankly, belonged in a wrecking yard.

Sheesh, what you get for trying to put actual content up on a car board...

Josh wrote: In reply to tuna55: I just don't think that, as 15 year old appliance cars go, it meets a reasonable definition of "wrecked". I think most of us here already know that beyond the typical term of a new car loan/full coverage insurance, a carfax report means about as much as a letter from the tooth fairy.

I do. Jav does. If you don't have something nice to say...

In reply to Vigo:

The paint overall was a pretty glaring issue. Even non-car people would have clued in to all of the sunburns, giant rusty dents smothered in touch-up paint, the is-matched side panels, and the orange peel. Even if the chassis hadn't have been totally wacked and bubble-gummed back together, the paint alone would have dropped this car to crap status for anybody with more than zero eyeballs and two brain cells.

I guess i should have been specific. All my comments were about the silver car. You're saying they wanted 5k for the white one?

Javelin wrote: Maybe you needed to drive it, but trust me man, this car was *beat*. There's no way that chassis was square anymore, it was downright unsafe to drive.

So why didn't you just say that, then? :)

I figured your intent was a writeup on how to find "hidden" flaws in a car you're looking to flip, but some of the things you pointed out seemed like nitpicking worthy of a $20k car. When I see the admonition to "run away like it's coated in agent orange" immediately followed by an innocuous picture of some alloy wheels in perfectly average if not above average condition (no curb rash!), forgive me if I thought it came across as a hair unreasonable. In the same manner, most of the bodywork you showed looked pretty typical for older cars that have had minor repairs once free of bank loans (and thus not fixed on the insurance company's dime). That was definitely not a top dollar car, for sure, but then again who's looking at a top dollar car as a prospective flip anyway :P.

Javelin, don't take all this the wrong way. It's good info when used in the right way and like Tom_Spangler said, it can be useful across any car at any price range. My point and i think Josh's too, is that a potential buyer should calibrate their expectations and the amount of time/effort put into an inspection, on the type of car you're looking at and what you're buying for.

For example, the Civic i looked at yesterday, i really dont even know what the interior looks like, or even the thickness of the brake pads seen through the wheels. I saw enough on my walk-around to know the dealer's asking price was too far away from a good price to make a deal. I didn't try to find everything wrong on that car once the stuff i found hit that tipping point and i just stopped because going any further was a waste of all our time. But that doesn't mean it's not important to know how to do all of it. The closer something is to actually being bought, and the more it costs, the closer you should look. I would certainly look closely at either of those Rav4s if i was seriously considering paying 5k for them and my standards would be really high because a 99 rav4 better be perfect for 5k. But if i was looking at a $2500 rav4 for a friend/relative/whatever my standards would be a lot lower and i probably wouldnt go as far in my inspection as you did. Like i said, the silver one looks like a good deal for 2500 even though it is a bad deal for 5000.

I dont think this takes away from what you posted. You posted about the HOW to do a thing and i have just been talking about the time and place to do a thing, really. I'm not trying to contradict your HOW at all.

tuna55 wrote: Are some people actually complaining that Jav went and found a wrecked car being sold as a non-wrecked car? Tough crowd!

I think that that part is being overlooked, by most.

Damn near every wrecked car is sold as an un-wrecked car unless the person who owns it owned it during the accident AND is feeling honest. The only people who sell the farm right up front and talk about serious accident history are the people who say they have salvage titles, and they still frequently lie about WHY it has a salvage title, and even then the only reason they even bring it up in an ad is to save themselves the time of dealing with the 95% of people who wont buy a car with a salvage title.

Just sayin. You cant shake a stick in the 14y/o car market without hitting a wrecked car. Figuring out whether it matters or not is what's important!

so, uh, every car that i've ever owned- or likely ever will own- is a complete POS that is unsafe for the road..

good to know..

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY....

Come on guys, the guy gave us some good tips. Don't like 'em? Keep it to yourself.

Thanks for the informative post, Javelin!

Even beaters, whose sole intent is to cart your nitpicky ass around in the snow should be given a close inspection like this. To not do so I feel is negligent and could seriously compromise the safety of yourself or your cargo, so thank you Jav.

Javelin; awesome write up! as for Vigo I don't think he is knocking your write-up. I think the only thing Vigo is saying is you have to put this stuff into context.

Even if he was, its a public forum and that should be expected. Cant please everyone. I only say this because I don't want you to get discouraged or stop since I find these informative.

In reply to jdbuilder:

Thanks. I'll keep writing them, it's up to the readers to apply the knowledge how they see fit.

I'm curious what the signs were on the test drive - anything besides the pulling to one side or mysterious clunks? I certainly appreciate the write up - any time something is documented with good pics and text I'm thankful!

In reply to HeavyDuty:

Engine was hesitant to start, clattered when starting, and was down on power (this was all just signs of neglected maintenance). Trans whined loudly and clunked into gears. Steering pulled hard to one side, suspension crashed over the slightest of irregularities, and the rear end crab-walked compared to the front. Bearing grumbling from the right rear and general instability cornering as well.

Granted, it could be that every single bushing and ball joint was shot, along with blown shocks and bad tie-rods, but the crab-walk and spooky handling was what was telling me the chassis structure itself was off. That and the door gaps side-to-side.