I need a new track toy, too

Nugi said:

Fwd:

3k civic with mods. But not a new si, an old 1988-2000 when they still had proper double wishbone. Engine swaps are easy and cheap, as are all other parts. They are stupid simple, reliable, and still easy to find parts for. Find one with a B/H/F/K swap already done for easy-button. B-trans can swap gears for custom ratios, k-series can often add a 6th, lsd are available, axles are cheap. Lots of upgrades and swaps from integra, crv and other civics. 

Rwd:

Normally, id say s2000, miata, maybe even 240sx (if you can find one). RX-7/8s are wonderful, but suffer from the spinning dorrito curse of bad seals. Maybe an rx8 with a swap? I would start with what your engine and suspension options are and work backward. Maybe cruise racingjunk for ideas. Mustangs sound good for the price, but I am not very familiar with them. 

The EK Si will probably not work in terms of fitment. Unless you change the seats out for something lower. I suspect Lugnut and I are similar in size. I got rid of my EK  because I barely fit without a helmet and would not fit with a helmet. The older Hondas will work as long as no sunroof. The EK Si all came equipped with a sunroof.

Sonic said:

For $5k I think you are on the right track with an 8th gen Si or an NC.  If you can go up to $10k then s2000s are available and meet your criteria well. 

Lugnut I'm in the NW Chicago burbs if you want to try an 8th gen Si sedan out.

In reply to clutchsmoke :

I absolutely would take you up on that!

Another thought, how would an S60R be for track use? I love turbo Volvos. I don't know how stout these are. I've heard they have issues with the AWD systems. I never got around to taking any of mine to the track (745ti manual, 850 turbo auto, S70 T5 manual) but I enjoyed them on the street. I feel like I'm going farther from ideal but they're just so cool and there is one for sale locally :)

Lol. No worries on my thread. I think your list will be much broader than mine, but I will be following yours as well.

Lugnut said:

Sonic said:

For $5k I think you are on the right track with an 8th gen Si or an NC.  If you can go up to $10k then s2000s are available and meet your criteria well. 

I know I don't fit in an S2000 with a helmet on. My head crashes right into the cross-bar on the top.

A clean 8th gen is going to be a little harder to find at your $5k number, but it fits your needs otherwise. Mazdeuce has a ton of time driving them and I'm prepping mine to beat the snot out of it. 

I did notice that nobody said the Boxster would probably be fine, though. I really just wish I could use this car! I love it so much but... those oiling issues plus the replacement engines being so expensive...

Lugnut said:

In reply to clutchsmoke :

I absolutely would take you up on that!

I've never driven a Boxster or any Porsche for that matter so perhaps turnabout is fair play?

Of course! I’ll email you through the board later today. 

Nissan 200SX or Infiniti G20 for SR20 goodness.  Find one that lived in the south or a garage to avoid rust.

Ford Contour SVT or Unicorn Jag X-type (like mine with AWD and a stick shift).

B6 Passat can be had with a 6 speed manual and either tune the turbo 4 to give crazy power or find one with the VR6 for the best noises ever.

Lincoln LS.  Jaguar platform pieces, RWD and surprisingly sporty.  

I know you mentioned the $5k ceiling, but it doesn't seem like anything less than that tickles your fancy.  For less than that you have Miata, or some of the other models mentioned here.  Since you were tracking a new SS 1LE and also had a M3, it seems like you can afford more (not necessarily that you should as those are personal decisions).  

When I was looking two years ago for a track toy / DD, I started with RWD as a must and a manual as a must.  It also had to be cheap enough where track insurance was not necessary.  From there, it was a question of reliability and running costs on track.  As you know, tires/brakes/gas/etc. can add up real quick.  I've had Miatas before, but did not like how little space they had, nor was I sure how crash worthy they were given the size, so I ended up with a FRS.  I purchased a 2013 model for $12k w/ 78k on the clock.  It's been two years now and probably 30ish days on track and it's been pretty great.  Outside of maintenance stuff I've had to do nothing else (ex. modifications of course) with the exception of changing a coil pack on track (they are known to fail on pre 2015 models with intense heat - I've had ~25 track days since).  The only other issue has been me using thicker oil than recommended during the winter (I'm in Chicago too), which caused a VVT error and I fixed that myself (total cost less than $200). 

On track they are really a ton of fun.  Not sure your experience level but with a great driver they can do really well stock (seems like you're already aware that they need an oil cooler for track duty).  At my first track event two years ago I met a guy named Peter who had a similar car.  Outside of fluid / pads and camber bolts up front with Hankook RS3 tires (225/45/17) he was completely stock.  I later found out he did a 1.42.6 at Autobahn South, which if you know the course is a hell of a time.  Here's the video he sent me - https://youtu.be/RH6sxjUXuvE

So if you're willing to stretch on your budget, I think it could certainly be in your consideration set.  I'm going to be at Autobahn tomorrow afternoon / evening for a LAPS event.  If you're not too far and want to get a ride to see it on track I'd be happy to give you a ride (note - my car's not exactly stock anymore - wheels, headers + tune, coilovers, rear LCA, a few bushings, diffuser).  

In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :

I love the Contour SVT. I recall that there are many parts that are NLA and some parts that are kind of fragile. Is that incorrect? I remember the same thing about the X-type. I thought their AWD systems were super delicate and extremely costly to fix. I didn't think these two were robust enough for track abuse.

I'm open to the Passat, but why would that be a better choice than the Golf or Jetta I mentioned earlier? I was actually about to post that nobody had said anything at all about the GTI, which I thought was a pretty good option.

I haven't driven an LS, but I have heard good things about the manual V6 as a street car. It also seems pretty huge and heavy for a track car, and again, I don't know about its robustness. Remember I'm not looking for a street car here. I am looking for a car that I am going to beat on at the track a couple dozen times a year. If you can show me some track builds of these cars and how well they stand up to it, I will read them all!

You need a kart. I've got a Birel RY30 S4 / Rotax Max for sale for $3000. It burns a gallon and a half of 87 with 5 ounces of Motul per day. Tires are $225 per set and last two races and two test days.  

In reply to bcp2011 :

I almost bought a BRZ a couple of weeks ago. I was in a weird position with the Camaro and the M3. I really enjoyed the BRZ I almost bought. My decision not to buy it was financial. With both of these cars gone, I'm without a car payment, and I won't be financing any cars in the foreseeable future. I think an FRS or BRZ could be a great choice - it's fun to drive, basically the same kind of performance as my Boxster, and I see all they need is an oil cooler to perform reliably on the track.

And it's not that nothing tickles my fancy! I listed a bunch of options that nobody really talked much about. I'll repeat the ones I'm super interested in here:

Mk4 or Mk5 GTI

MINI Cooper S

Sentra SE-R Spec V

Civic Si

Celica GTS

Focus SVT or ZX4 ST

350Z

Cobalt SS (turbo isn't in my budget, supercharged is)

Mazdaspeed 3

But we haven't had any discussion about any of those ones. Is a Lincoln LS or Jaguar X-type or XJR a better track car than an old Mustang or GTI? I can't imagine that they are.

Unless there's a big new surprise, let's focus on comparing and talking about the ones I have here.

I've been tracking a 2003 350z Touring for the last two years. I can say it's a fun car to own and very competent. I don't run very sticky tires yet so am not in the fast group by any stretch. My modifications for track duty consisted of Bilstein B6 shocks/struts, H&R sport springs (they came with purchase in the trunk), and a 370Z track edition brake upgrade. I upgraded the brakes as the original brakes were undersized for track duty. The brakes I replaced WERE NOT the brembo's that came on the track edition so I can't speak to the effectiveness of those. The current brakes are Akebono rip-offs that are quad piston front calipers. I've never had heat or fade issues with them. The car has enough power on track to be really fun. It has a nice feel and being RWD, the right moves. On the road it's a fun ride! The wife likes to go out in dates in the car as it has the safety and features of more modern cars so it's not barbaric even with the suspension mods. It has torque for days out of that 3.5 V6. Rock solid reliable for me so far. If you want more power you can buy a newer version with the Uprev motor. That or step up to the 370Z if you really want to spend more. I know your budget amount is $5k. You can buy these for $5k but they'll need deferred maintenance at least. 

Chris Harris did a video comparing one of the 86 siblings against a Cayman and a 370Z. He mentioned that the Z is a great car at 7/10ths and is fun to drive until you really start pushing it hard, then it completely falls apart. That's more or less what I recall from my experience with them way back when they first came out. I was thinking hard about replacing my old 968 with a 350Z back in like 2002 or so, and I drove all of the various models and found that I liked the base model the best but even tossing it around in a vacant industrial park, it was wallowy and loose and felt like a pendulum (even more than a 911) when I started making the tires make noise. Is this wrong?

And I'll say again that I loved the BRZ. Maybe my real solution is to wait until next year and expand my budget and buy a BRZ or FRS.

In reply to Lugnut :

Glad you enjoyed the BRZ.  I have a great time playing with Boxsters/Caymans on track.  :)

I know you prioritized $5k, reliability and ability to track out of the box, and fit.  If $5k is really the max, you've already narrowed the choices above.  If not, and you can stretch, then you may need to use some other measures to narrow the field.  I think by initial glance a key question is whether you NEED RWD or you're indifferent.  If you're indiffierent the Honda platforms are pretty great - reliable, cheap, easy power.  I'd have zero worries about tracking a civic/integra/RSX.  If you don't want FWD, then that gets rid of most of your list.  The 350Z will be a bit more than the rest and the 86 platform in terms of consumables just due to weight and power and tire sizes, but if RWD is a must, as it was for me, there really aren't that many options (unfortunately...).  

Lastly, there are a ton of twins that track around the area, so if you're interested in sitting in one I'm sure you can find one at most events.  

BMW (I know, I know) 128i.

Nicest trackable commuter you can buy for <6k IMO. 

Totally indifferent to RWD. I didn't think I mentioned it as a necessity at all. Fwd can be a ton of fun. I have a ton of fwd cars on the list, even!

You mentioned the RSX - I asked earlier, I keep hearing about people cursing the rear suspension on those. Is it just because it's a strut Honda and not a double wishbone Honda?

I have looking for track stuff on the GTI and I see a bunch of posts where people say they're getting rid of their GTI because they've reached their limit with that car and they're maxing it out. So, like, Lewis Hamilton could come over and drive their car and he wouldn't beat their time? I doubt that. I always thought they'd be a ton of fun on the track. And I love watching cars corner on three wheels! :)

I hope I'm not spamming my own post, I have been kinda posting things as I think about them during work :) Maybe a different 

For a MINI, would a turbo or a supercharged car be better? I had a turbo MINI (an '07 S) that I liked a lot - I traded it for a 500 Abarth which I liked A LOT but those are too expensive right now :) 

I have read that the supercharged cars cope with the beatings better, but I didn't have one of those. I had a turbo car. For a driver, I thought the later cars were much nicer. For a car where the daily driving is not a priority, maybe the older cars might have an edge.

The Passat is a bit bigger and heavier than the GTI but it's also more stable and has better suspension and brakes.  And the GTI isn't available with the 3.6 VR6 (for the above mentioned awesome noises).

The Lincoln is more Jag than Mustang.  At the King of the Heap last year it did astonishingly well on the road course.

One that hasn't been brought up yet:  The second gen Ford Probe with the KLDE motor.  Ask Spoolpigeon about it as a track car, I'm pretty sure he's quicker in it than he is in his C5 Corvette.

In reply to Lugnut :

Post away as you see fit! It's your discussion!

Isn't the issue with the Minis reliability? I autocross a lot, with four different clubs, and almost never see one at an event.

Maybe that's due to a classing disadvantage, but I wonder if they break, heat soak, or suck to work on (or maybe all of the above).

The RSX suspension recipe has been sorted out AFAIK. My understanding is the mini has a fair bit of reliability issues and is a total pain to work on due to packaging.

This about falls in your budget

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/cars-sale/fs-2008-bmw-128i-6mt/156340/page1/

These cars are all going to be a lot slower than a roofrack rocketship. 

In reply to Lugnut :

RSX - not an expert by any means on Hondas, but I see plenty of them on track and people seem to have a lot of fun with them.  Plus I think the Type S goes up to 9k RPM.

If you're ok with FWD why not get the best sorted out Civic you can find?  They probably tick most if not all of your boxes and a ton of people race them, so there's a good support community, and the parts/consumeables are cheap as E36 M3.