I also agree IRS is overrated.
Toyota pre-runner is the easy button as it's a well trodden path. Buy one already built or build your own. On my never ending list of dream projects.
I also agree IRS is overrated.
Toyota pre-runner is the easy button as it's a well trodden path. Buy one already built or build your own. On my never ending list of dream projects.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
The other thought that has occurred to me, again for GRM like costs, would be to pick up some dirt track suspension pieces. They tend to run spring rates more akin to what you're suggesting and can be found with some fairly lengthy travel, just add the long bump stops. I hit a couple of racer swap meets each summer and find stuff to be pretty cheap. Hardest part is finding anything in pairs, those guys run 4 different spring rates and 4 different shocks pretty regularly.
My MINI will hustle along reasonably well on dirt roads, but the travel is limited. I have seen a rally MINI thread where the guy fitted shocks and springs from a WRX and gained some travel.
I envision a small car with long lower A-arms, pivoting as close to the center line of the car as possible. IRS all around. Outer board ends would be suspended by whatever lengthy coilover you can find. That's basically what a Raptor or the Paco suspension does, lengthen the travel.
This thread is relevant to my next project after my 190e is done. I basically want to build a rally wagon, not for actual rally but that type of theme. After reading through ¯\_(ツ)_/¯'s threads I think it would be doable.
I would be using my rusted out AE71 corolla wagon as a base. It shares a lot of the front suspension with the AE86.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:My MINI will hustle along reasonably well on dirt roads, but the travel is limited. I have seen a rally MINI thread where the guy fitted shocks and springs from a WRX and gained some travel.
Struts? Or the rear suspension? WRX Struts don't actually have that much travel. (6.1" front, 7.5" rear)
I think the biggest issue is avoiding strut vehicles because they are the most difficult to increase travel.
My bench racing thought, and you can GRM it.
97' and older 2WD Ranger, lengthed 87' and older I-beams, reamed out ball joints to accept F150 D44 spindles, E150 8.8 or 9" rear, fiberglass fenders and 35" tires. Then pick your powerplants for an engine swap. Essentially a 7S or 1400 class truck without a roll cage.
I'm not impressed with these non-grm answers.
Stock ls430 would soak up just about anything if it had a little more tire-fender clearance.
You can find many lifted ls400 examples, I dont think ls430s have gotten quite cheap enough for people to start cutting fenders and putting on all terrains.
Good at water crossings too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv7wwDB29HU
In reply to ProDarwin :
You're right, they don't, but they have more travel than the MINI units, front and rear according to the build thread. I also assume he has much more selection with Subie parts,too.
Trailing arms, front and rear, soak up bumps well and can be made longish travel pretty easy. Mix that with some high-float tires like a nice 31-10.50 R15.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:Looked at the Infiniti FX series shock specs since you posted a photo of one- unfortunately, that particular platform is probably a lousy choice. I'm seeing a strut up front with 5.25" of travel and a shock out back with a hilarious 2.57" of travel (motion ratio probably doubles this, but still, yikes).
Where are you finding that data? I always struggle to find travel numbers.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
I go on RockAuto and click around the various replacement shocks- Monroe consistently has travel and length information, some other manufacturers do too.
Everyone's overthinking this. My '94 Miata on 14" tires did exactly what you're asking for. I could drive it without easing off on potholed Worcester streets and on dirt and gravel roads.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
I go on RockAuto and click around the various replacement shocks- Monroe consistently has travel and length information, some other manufacturers do too.
Rad, thanks.
In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :
thanks for this info on rock auto
is there a good rule of thumb as far as amount of travel you would want for a rally car type build?
In reply to Somebeach (Forum Supporter) :
Depends what you're doing with it- I'd say 6" is sufficient for running around on crappy roads, more is always better, and you can even get away with less provided enough of it is bump travel. The shock specs don't tell you everything, though, any system where the shock isn't mounted directly to the wheel is going to have some motion ratio to consider.
thanks for all the comments, a lot of great insight here. A few points..
-unsprung weight and bump stops, yes I agree both are huge. I used to have a 2017 Ram Rebel with the air ride and big heavy tires. I was very aware of how heavy each of the 4 corners were when hitting a large bump. You know the loud THUNG sound as you feel the reverberations through the chassis. This is kind of what is making me shy away from full size pickups, aside from the heft and size.
-I've never liked tacomas, I hardly fit in them and the seating position, high floor and upright doesn't agree with my back. Owners are way too proud of them with the pricing. Similarly an old ranger or bug not really what I'm after. There is the NVH aspect to consider too, and a squeaky 90s/2000s ford with 10k in suspension bits is not what I want.
-I totally understand suspension is a compromise, highly subjective, and dependent on driving style/speed. So maybe I will narrow down the criteria a bit more since I'm not going to be prerunning baja and smashing 2 foot whoops. I want a solid feeling car with loads of suspension travel to drive a tad over the speed limit on rough washboard gravel and bad pavement. Understandably, rally suspension or baja tuned suspension will be too stiff at these speeds.
Things that make a big difference in the perception of the ride quality.
-torsional chassis stiffness. For example I test drove a new Ridgeline (used to own a first gen) and immediately noticed the chassis actually lost stiffness in the bed compared to my 1G. So the butt could feel twist and flex from diagonal corners. Turn down the confidence, turn up mechanical empathy and that detracts from overall driving experience.
-interior quality. I also drove a new lexus RX350, much improved chassis stiffness. But maintaining the speed over train tracks made the dash and A pillar plastic crunch and creak.
So I guess I'm actually hypersensitive to these sorts of things. I don't want to ever feel cowl shake, noticeable chassis twist, vibrations or harmonics after hitting a bump, hard bottoming on the bump stops, and creaks/rattles from the interior. I don't mind numb steering, or floppy body roll. Maybe what I'm after is an Outback with some damper upgrades?
In reply to twowheeled :
Subaru is probably the easy button, assuming you are OK with the interior and general build quality. King springs are available for most models to stiffen them up a bit at around stock height, combine those with some decent shocks and nice foam bumpstops and you should be in business.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) :
http://www.monroe.com/downloads/install-instructions-guides/MonroeMountingLengthSpecifications.pdf
Find the part number and then you can use this to dimension it. I've used it to find similar sized shocks when I'm trying to substitute a heavier duty unit.
Example: My Challenge car will have Miata front suspension and I found some Tundra Bilsteins for $9 each. I confirmed the dimensions with the document from Monroe. You can bolt Tundra shocks into a Miata with minor modifications.
You must live in Michigan.
So, just for an example, if you were to get an Outback 3.6R, you can then head on over to Primitive Racing's site and get King 25% stiffer standard height springs, Bilstein B6s, and skidplates. Then I'd probably stick some sort of exhaust on it because what's the point of a flat 6 if you can't hear it?
Toyota Avalon, fresh OE shocks. The smallest, lightest wheels you can find with highway tires with lots of sidewall. It would be like driving on novocain. You could drive over potholes, speed bumps, pedestrians and wildlife and not even notice.
Hear me out:
G Wagon with AT tires
Or 2010-ish Range Rover/LR4 with AT tires
Bonus points for AMG or supercharged range rover.
You're probably referring to how nicely a Trophy truck takes all those big bumps and just floats, right? I've had that dream too. I don't care how fast I can corner in my truck, I want to yank all but one leaf from the back and add airbags, and swap to the 4-cyl torsion bars up front and just crank them up to get the right ride height.
What a Trophy truck looks like:
What a Trophy Truck actually feels like:
It's pretty violent in those.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:Toyota Avalon, fresh OE shocks. The smallest, lightest wheels you can find with highway tires with lots of sidewall. It would be like driving on novocain. You could drive over potholes, speed bumps, pedestrians and wildlife and not even notice.
I would say the same thing, except replace Avalon with any full-size early malaise era car. Caddy Eldo, Olds 98, Bonneville, Fury, LTD.
What you're looking for is a low oscilation frequency. Basically how much spring rate you have per lb of car. My 94 Fordzda Branger has an oscilation frequency of about 3hz. My 66 Bonneville was more like 0.75hz.
Wasn't there someone on here who put fat springs in the front of a S40 and a boost controller and did this sort of thing? I remember something about that and it left such an impression I almost went for it on my MS3. It sounds like the recipe for the perfect city car.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
yea I realize it is quite a violent ride. However I'm not offroading whoops on this future vehicle. I want to drive roads like this, fast, and that's it. No obstacles larger than 6" or so. 
Once upon a time ago I owned a beater prius. I put on a new set of KYB shocks and stiffer springs and actually drove washboard at around 50-60mph with a set of ear plugs, dash and interior looking and sounding like they were going to break apart at any second. The shocks lasted maybe about 5000 miles before they blew. I imagine the same thing would happen with an avalon or land yacht. I don't think the suspension has the fluid capacity for prolonged abuse.
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