I No Longer Wish To Make Cars Fast.

I am not a good momentum car driver. I use the throttle to control the car not having that and driving is boring as it takes away the " I want to kill you" factor that so many of my most favorite and fun cars have.  This is not to say momentum car driving is not a skill. It is. It is just one I don't have. 
 

An old timer told me that slow cars are for drivers that lack throttle control skills. I feel the same about todays cars with TC and stability control. These nanny's mean you don't need those skills as the car does it for you.   
 

Cars did not have these when I was racing. Your TC was your right foot and stability control was how your hands and feet worked together.  I see that as a lost skill with todays cars. Todays tech in cars makes those with far less skill be able to get on track and be saved by a computer system.  

dean1484 said:

I am not a good momentum car driver. I use the throttle to control the car.

An old timer told me that slow cars are for drivers that lack throttle control skills.

And and now to dispell the biggest myth about low powered cars. 

If you get on the throttle to fast to soon in a low powered car you are going to get understeer. This will sap your exit speed every bit as much as wheel spin.

You still have to feed in the throttle in a momentum car. People think this isn't the case because they aren't actually on the limit mid corner. If you have all four tires at maximum slip angles there is no traction left to accelerate; hence getting back into the throttle too soon resulting in understeer.

So the reasons for rolling into the throttle are completely different the net result is the same.............regardless of what you are driving you can't just slap the gas pedal to the floor.

​​​​As for throttle steering I do that every sweeper and double apex corner.

A friend used to have me take people for rides in his NB Miata track car and people were stunned at the level of aggression. One friend's comments sum it up best.

"I was sure you'd spin the car on the brakes as it was snaking around wildly, then you'd just turn in and just when I thought we'd fly off the track on the exit, you'd use the kerb to catch the car like a berm. I had no idea"

And now back to my original post topic. With new cars, regardless of the horsepower, you don't have to drove them this way because they are so good. Making older cars like the ones I own this fast now seems pointless to me as you can just buy a really fast car.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Making older cars like the ones I own this fast now seems pointless to me as you can just buy a really fast car.

This point has dogged me for a long time as I tried to make faster VW after faster VW. The newer stuff just flat out leaves you in the dust in most cases. And they have A/C, can be driven on the road with ease and comfort, and are much quieter. I autocrossed my Mazda 2 for so long that driving the Scirocco seems like going backwards. I can't run the a/c while waiting for my next run (removed because racecar) or play my Ramones' CD while autocrossing the Roc!

Am I getting soft?

In reply to vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) :

Some dumbass (previous owner) removed the A/C from my kinda monstery RX-7 but I made a point of listening to music while on course.  

Before that car I had a Golf and would listen to energetic hair metal on course...

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Making older cars like the ones I own this fast now seems pointless to me as you can just buy a really fast car.

This point has dogged me for a long time as I tried to make faster VW after faster VW. The newer stuff just flat out leaves you in the dust in most cases. And they have A/C, can be driven on the road with ease and comfort, and are much quieter. I autocrossed my Mazda 2 for so long that driving the Scirocco seems like going backwards. I can't run the a/c while waiting for my next run (removed because racecar) or play my Ramones' CD while autocrossing the Roc!

Am I getting soft?

No, you are not getting soft.

The reasons I bought the Foxbody Mustang is because it has AC and a CD player. I wanted a classic but I didn't want to give up creature comforts.

No one has ever actively wanted a dual duty track car that rides like crap and beats you up..........we just tolerate them. New cars are now fast and comfortable.

johndej said:

In reply to ddavidv :

The last new car sold in the US with a carburetor was the 1994 Isuzu Pickup, 30 years ago. Now you can have your pick of like 10 new options with 400 hp from the factory for 30-40k. Hell, a 10 year old mustang makes over 300 hp with the small motor. You haven't needed to make newer cars fast. 

Totally not the point of my videos. 

Tom1200 said:

rustomatic said:

The big weird elephant in the room is that without context, perhaps people sub-30 just don't realize how slow cars used to be on average. 

I will add further context.

A couple of years ago Porsche was touting turning a 2:13 at Road America with a GT3-RS.  That's phenomenal but one could buy a Formula Continental or P2 sports racer for 1/6th the price and go 3-4 seconds a lap faster. 

And therein lies my problem. I could stuff a V8 in the Datsun and have my fabricator add state of the art suspension and have a 1900lb with 500hp but it would be simpler and likely cheaper to just buy a fast car. Granted I don't like modern cars on track as they are heavy.

 

 

I'm not sure what the point is of comparing a street legal car to a single seater race car. 

This happens here quite frequently. X costs a lot of money, I could build something faster for less money. I could as well, would it be a competent street car with a warranty. No, it wouldn't. 

z31maniac said

I'm not sure what the point is of comparing a street legal car to a single seater race car. 

This happens here quite frequently. X costs a lot of money, I could build something faster for less money. I could as well, would it be a competent street car with a warranty. No, it wouldn't. 

Here is why:

A single seater will always be cheaper for the level of speed. For the 50-75k people are spending on fast track cars you can buy something like a Formula Continental, tow it with your existing SUV and have 10 years worth of running costs. At those prices I could also pay someone to prep the car. Said SUV will also likely ride better and be quiet on the drove home from the track. Also one isn't build the car

As for a 911 GT3; you could do 10 seasons of arrive and drive in a really fast purpose built race car

All of the above goes to my point; yes one may be able to build a fast car but as a duel duty car it's going to suck on the way to and from the track. So you might as well buy a fast car. In my case I'm cheap and a single seater is cheaper all around. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

In the karting book that I borrowed from the library about three dozen times in elementary school, there was a photo of a kart wedged in the hatch of a Pinto.  Not even a wagon, a glass hatch Pinto.

Don't need no SUV to haul a track only toy if you do it right 

When the RX rules for Constructors were announced, I realized that the minimum size was so small that with a little ingenuity I could build ramps and drive it up onto the back of an RX-7 like a little ramp truck.  Minimum width was something like 42" with a 1:1 width/height rule, so this describes a very small vehicle.  I was picturing a single seater with a mid mounted Honda Fit engine/CVT.  The difficult thing is that you have to have doors and windows.

Tom1200 said:

All of the above goes to my point; yes one may be able to build a fast car but as a duel duty car it's going to suck on the way to and from the track. So you might as well buy a fast car. In my case I'm cheap and a single seater is cheaper all around. 

This is like the argument about why buy a fast car when you can buy a motorcycle for a tenth of the price?  It's true, but it misses the point.

Opportunities to drive an open wheel formula car are few and far between.  They aren't street legal and you can't take them to normal track days.  You can autocross them, you can run them at a small number of race-car dedicated open test days, and you can race them with a small number of race orgs (SCCA and various vintage groups are the only ones I know of).  You can't run them any of the low buck enduro series (Champ, Lemons, LDR, etc), you can't even run them with NASA.

Single seat prototype/sports racers aren't quite as bad.  They are technically "closed wheel" and can thus run with some track day groups and race with NASA, but personally I have serious safety concerns about sub-thousand pound sports racers sharing a track with 4000 pound Camaros and the like.  Even if you ignore that, a proper sports racer is 10-20 seconds a lap faster than almost anything else at a normal track day, which is a recipe for frustration.  You never get a clear lap, you're always passing people, and since you're in a small, low, "invisible" car you need to be very very careful when you do it.

Purpose built single-seaters are serious cars intended for serious racing and most people are not actually interested in serious racing.  They don't want to have to get a race license, mess around with tow vehicles and trailers, or deal with the maintenance requirements that come with heim-joint suspension.  They want to hop in their dual-purpose street/track car, drive to the track, and then do some laps.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Motorcycles are a kind of single seater 

But they can't corner as hard as a four wheeled vehicle and the repercussions for exceeding the limits are much more severe, so they aren't very good for a certain type of mindset.

I get what the OP is saying, but I'm also sympathetic that comparing OEM X to modified Y and concluding that Y is better doesn't work. The problem is what's better is highly subjective and different for everyone. Stating what I think is better only works if someone else's situation is exactly the same, which is never true.

Along similar lines, I remember in the 1980(?) when full-size truck people put down small import trucks, "Let's see them try and haul a ton of rocks." Apples and oranges. Same for import sport compact cars, where owners would say how their (modified) car was superior to OEM brand X. Apples and oranges.

Most of us don't have the luxury of a track-only car, one needing a trailer and something to tow it with, and the space for them, and the budget. Far more people are able to modestly modify their car, drive to the track, run it, and drive home. Not as fast, but still fun.

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Making older cars like the ones I own this fast now seems pointless to me as you can just buy a really fast car.

This point has dogged me for a long time as I tried to make faster VW after faster VW. The newer stuff just flat out leaves you in the dust in most cases. And they have A/C, can be driven on the road with ease and comfort, and are much quieter. I autocrossed my Mazda 2 for so long that driving the Scirocco seems like going backwards. I can't run the a/c while waiting for my next run (removed because racecar) or play my Ramones' CD while autocrossing the Roc!

Am I getting soft?

Is your goal to go as fast as you can or to make a VW Scirocco go as fast as it can? It helps to keep sight of your goal. When the slant six in my Dart lost a rod bearing, I could have swapped in a Mopar small block. Or an a LS. Or a 440 Wedge. Any of which would have been faster. 

But my goal was to see how fast I would go with a slant six.

MadScientistMatt said:

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Making older cars like the ones I own this fast now seems pointless to me as you can just buy a really fast car.

This point has dogged me for a long time as I tried to make faster VW after faster VW. The newer stuff just flat out leaves you in the dust in most cases. And they have A/C, can be driven on the road with ease and comfort, and are much quieter. I autocrossed my Mazda 2 for so long that driving the Scirocco seems like going backwards. I can't run the a/c while waiting for my next run (removed because racecar) or play my Ramones' CD while autocrossing the Roc!

Am I getting soft?

Is your goal to go as fast as you can or to make a VW Scirocco go as fast as it can? It helps to keep sight of your goal. When the slant six in my Dart lost a rod bearing, I could have swapped in a Mopar small block. Or an a LS. Or a 440 Wedge. Any of which would have been faster. 

But my goal was to see how fast I would go with a slant six.

 

I don't think any car I build would ever go as fast as it should! I want to improve myself. That's why I liked the Mazda 2 so much. I could really work that car to improve me. No hiding anything in a car that isn't that fast and can mask poor driving with horsepower. It's moot for me now as that car is gone, the VW is on the selling block, and I want to focus on getting the Challenge C3 completed (okay, started). Then I'll learn to drive that car as best I can. Until I decide I don't want to anymore. 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

A few things here:

I started road racing on motorcycles and I've yet to find a car that offers the same thrill and yes they are way cheaper...........until the medical bills show up😁

There are loads of opportunities to run an open wheel car. For me a race weekend isn't any less work than a track day because I typically bring my Datsun which isn't street legal. With an open wheel car I have 8 events to choose from every year between vintage and SCCA. I have no desire to do more than 8 track events.

With that said if I ever do go back to a single seat car it will be a sports racer as I can run that at Porsche Club events and vintage. 

I ran my D-sports racer at several time trial HPDEs back in the day and didn't find it frustrating at all.The car was so far in excess of most road cars that I knew I could zap past them instantly. I was always grided up first and typically lapped the entire group during a session. As for safety most sports racers are pretty stout as far as side impact goes.

If I ever decide not to do wheel to wheel racing I could envision myself selling all the cars and buying something like a Cayman. 

Motorcycles have successfully replaced racing cars for me. Road racing cost way too much for a guy with a middle-class income. I started riding before I quit racing, and it gives me the sensation of speed I like without having to go as fast. I've had great fun at 70 mph or less on bikes that have not exceeded 800cc.  Plus, they take up far less room, so I can have more of them. 

I will admit I do miss the feeling of diving deep into a turn and using all the track as I drift the car through it. That feeling cannot be replicated elsewhere.

Motorcycles have also replaced race cars for me. I did a little bit of everything but was mostly a circle track guy, and I could certainly do it on a budget, but I can run at a much higher level on a bike at a much lower cost of both time and money.

The track and trails are close, and in the summer months I ride 7 days a week. That's not happening with a race car of any kind.  When I think of building a race car now I imagine weeks and months of wrenching in the shop,  almost always wishing I had more time. This winter I have one complete (to the frame) tear down, an engine build, an engine rebuild, a few custom mods and installations, and regular maintenance on five other bikes. And I'll have no problem completing any of it.

I have always tended to make my cars faster, first by improving handling and then by adding some power.  The first car that I owned that I felt no compulsion to address either handling or power (though both could have been improved had I wished) was a BMW Z4M coupe.  Everything else I have owned has been 'improved' by me.

I'd rather focus on handling first, but I have to admit I only like low power to a point. I think 8-12 lb/hp is about the sweet spot. Fast enough that it feels like it is doing something, but not so fast that it hits warp speed on the street before you can blink.

Only on this board will a thread about a street track car get morphed into "Yeah, but you should buy a single seater race car!".  LOL.  There are many, many reasons why someone who wants a dual use street/track car won't even entertain a single seater race car.  Maybe they don't have an SUV to tow with, or have no space to store the race car, or the trailer.  Or want to deal with finding a shop that will maintain such a specialty vehicle or find a venue event that allows them in a DE setting.  Most people just don't want a single seater, those who do, are serious racers already involved in that class of car.  The guy who wants a dual use street/track car doesn't, it's not even a blip on the radar.

Let's compare what you have to do with each, assuming our "client" lives in a typical HOA suburban neighborhood.  Ie, can't park a trailer on the street in front of their house to store it, can't leave the trailer in their driveway and can't leave it on the property.  The day/night before/early morning of, they've got to go get the trailer, bring it to their house, check the car over, load the car, load the spares etc.  Drive to the venue, unload car, get things set up, do event.  Load car, load trailer.  Drive home and either that night or next day, unload car and trailer at home, then go drop trailer off at storage.  Contrast that with a dual use car.  Make sure car is ready, which consists of checking the oil and tire pressures, get in car, drive to event.  Have fun!  Drive car home.  Park in garage.  Done.

This doesn't address the fact that with the race car you have to maintain a trailer, insure it, register it, pay for storage.  Buy a suitable tow vehicle if you don't have one.  Pay to maintain it, if it's not your DD now it's taking up space at your house.  If it is your DD now you're DD an SUV vs something that's likely more fun to drive.  What's the resale on a single seater race car vs something like a GT3?  GT3's appreciate in value...

I've done the trailer thing vs driving my "Track car" to the track and for me, where I live, the trailer was a huge PITA to deal with.  I much prefer a dual use car that I use to tow a small tire trailer to the track.  Easy to store, easy to deal with, less time involved, less to pay for. 

In reply to docwyte :

100%.  Hell, I already have a tow pig that sits in storage and is used for my RV.  Even still, I don't want a purpose built dedicated track car.  Too much of a hassle and I'm not home enough to do many track days.  

And I'll still take a fast car over a slow car every day of the week.  

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Yeah, I loved my last E36 M3.  It was great, had all the track reliability mods, was safe to track with seats, rollbar and harnesses.  It had a license plate on it and I could street drive it, but it was much more of a track car than a street car with no interior behind the front seats, no rear firewall separating the cabin from the trunk, loud exhaust, race seats, etc.  I just didn't enjoy driving it on the street, my kids were little and couldn't ride in it safely, so it mostly sat around.  If I'm lucky, I get to 5-6 track days a year and I just got tired of it sitting for 360 days a year, it didn't make sense.  I was trailering it to the track, which was a huge PITA.  If I kept the car I would've sold the trailer and just started driving it to the track.

I sold it and got the 911, which I love, but at the same time, wish I'd had the money and space to also keep the M3.

I also like fast cars over slow cars.  The M3 felt weak kneed around town but was great on the track.  The 911 is the opposite, feels great around town but is scary fast on the track.

In reply to docwyte :

Not to mention that for a single seater testing is (legally) limited to the track. Sure, one can't drive at the limit on the street, but checking new installed parts and troubleshooting noises and such can be done.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

In the karting book that I borrowed from the library about three dozen times in elementary school, there was a photo of a kart wedged in the hatch of a Pinto.  Not even a wagon, a glass hatch Pinto.

Don't need no SUV to haul a track only toy if you do it right 

I remember a letter in an hold Hemmings S&E magazine was from a father who took his son's kart to races on the roof rack of his 325i.

The biggest problem with any car that I try to make fast is usually me.

In reply to docwyte :

I said I my very first post that a single seater was always "my" solution to a fast car. That doesn't mean it's "the" solution. I was merely pointing out that they are always cheaper, lap time for lap time.

As for track car vs dual duty car; I have both for the reasons both you and I have mentioned.

I love showing up with the Mustang having fun and then motoring home without any extra work when I get home.

I also still want to compete and I'm not going to drive a car 100% without a full cage and all the safety gear. Full track cars suck on the street.

My point still stands:

Ford, Porsche, BMW et al make way better fast cars than I can in my garage. I am also cheap and I can buy the same lap time for a third of the price in the form of a single seat car. 

As I've promised my wife I'd stay out of single seaters those are out, the Datsun is rather pointless to try and make fast for all the reasons we covered. The Foxbody Mustang falls into the same category and so hence I no longer wish  to make cars fast.

If you.want a fast car my opinion is just buy one, regardless of whether it's a 911 or a SCCA P2 car.