I thought I wanted an E36 M3...

...until I priced a set of RE71s for autocross.  I was already worried about BMW ownership costs.  I think I'll keep the miata. 

Background: wife said she's done with her 04 Sienna. Don't blame her, it runs fine, but has had a hard life, and someone at church will pay $3000 to use it to haul his dogs around. Plan is for her to daily my 04 Lancer Ralliart wagon, which she drove for a couple of years when we were recovering from the bankruptcy and loss of my practice. I've owned it for 9 years, it's only got about 140k, and it's been super reliable. 

I will be left with my 88 Silverado to daily (36 mile highway commute), and my miata for occasional use. We're a family of four, so the only car that will carry us all is the Lancer. We talked about replacing the two cars of mine (Lancer and Miata) with something with back seats, that I could still autocross. That's where the M3 discussion started. And ended when I priced the tires. 

I want to stay in a relatively small, somewhat lightweight and rear wheel drive car, but the twins aren't old enought to be in my price range (<10k, 8 would be better).  

An E46 or G35 would be options, but I'm not real comfortable with the idea of maintaining any BMW, and both are bigger and heavier. 

The problem here as I see it is that for anything heavier than a Miata (and certainly anything big enough to comfortably haul your family) to be competitive at autocross, it's going to use tires roughly as expensive as what you priced for the M3, unless you're just willing to settle for lesser tires. In that sense you are dead in the water. 

Are you just struggling with only having an 88 chevy pickup and a Miata for commute options? If you're happy with the miata as an autocross car and are trying to pick up an alternate commuter that could hold the 4 of you, I would suggest that you could probably trade your 88 pickup up to an older 4dr Dakota for very little money and retain most of your truck ability while gaining pretty good back seats and not having to spend a bunch of money on a sports car with a E36 M3ty back seat that burns up expensive tires and might not be any more fun than a Miata.

The solution to your problem:

Rallycross it instead. 

Good suggestions, but if I replace the truck, I have to return it to its original owner.

I like the rallycross suggestion, but there's only one event out of nine this year that's closer than a hundred fifty miles.

My nearest autocross venue is 3 miles away from my home, and instead of nine events for the entire year, I've been able to race as many as four times in one month.

Vigo said:

The problem here as I see it is that for anything heavier than a Miata (and certainly anything big enough to comfortably haul your family) to be competitive at autocross, it's going to use tires roughly as expensive as what you priced for the M3, unless you're just willing to settle for lesser tires. In that sense you are dead in the water. 

He's sadly not wrong. Anything is larger than the Miata, so to be remotely competitive means larger and more expensive tyres. At least the E36 only uses 17s compared some cars.

I just looked on tirerack's site for 235/40/17s. The most expensive tyre there is the Proxes RR at $240 each... I don't consider that a bad price.

Before I posted this, I was talking to my wife about it. Her response: "Well, that's why it's the answer."

Smart woman.

https://annarbor.craigslist.org/cto/d/01-dakota-1-owner-with-t/6760735955.html

I'll just leave this here.

akylekoz said:

https://annarbor.craigslist.org/cto/d/01-dakota-1-owner-with-t/6760735955.html

I'll just leave this here.

As soon as I opened the thread I thought this as well.  Keep the Miata for autocross, daily this for a decade.

I understand. I think just two rear tires on the 135i were $475 installed? 245/35/18 Pilot Super Sport (run flats)

That's why I think an ND2 is in the near future. 

Floating Doc said:

...until I priced a set of RE71s for autocross.  I was already worried about BMW ownership costs.  I think I'll keep the miata. 

Background: wife said she's done with her 04 Sienna. Don't blame her, it runs fine, but has had a hard life, and someone at church will pay $3000 to use it to haul his dogs around. Plan is for her to daily my 04 Lancer Ralliart wagon, which she drove for a couple of years when we were recovering from the bankruptcy and loss of my practice. I've owned it for 9 years, it's only got about 140k, and it's been super reliable. 

I will be left with my 88 Silverado to daily (36 mile highway commute), and my miata for occasional use. We're a family of four, so the only car that will carry us all is the Lancer. We talked about replacing the two cars of mine (Lancer and Miata) with something with back seats, that I could still autocross. That's where the M3 discussion started. And ended when I priced the tires. 

I want to stay in a relatively small, somewhat lightweight and rear wheel drive car, but the twins aren't old enought to be in my price range (<10k, 8 would be better).  

An E46 or G35 would be options, but I'm not real comfortable with the idea of maintaining any BMW, and both are bigger and heavier. 

That’s what is wrong with Cone racing.  Tiny fractions of a second separate you from having fun.  Thus requiring both frequent expenses and staying on the top of your skills( regular events) 

Wheel to wheel racing at least at the regional level minor little things can be overcome with talent and timing.  

There may only be one or two cars in a given class  chances are at least one is a walking wounded.  Low hanging fruit.  Several times I arrived at an event and could see I had a very good chance of winning with a less than the best car.  

If not maybe one all out qualifying lap would put me enough ahead of the competition that unless I made a mistake I could hold on for the win.  

If not chances were extremely good that another car maybe not even in my class could give me a race long dice.  In fact some of my favorite races in the Corvette  I raced C or even D production cars and in the end we all came into the pits with great big grins on our faces.  

Drinks were bought, backs were slapped and plans made for the next event.  Racing side by side affords you rewards you simply cannot experience in Cone racing.  

Plus a less than perfect car can still be a grin producing ride.  You don’t need every last bit and trick, how does it go? 

Speed costs money!  More speed costs a lot more money and then some and winning takes all the money and a lot more besides.  

Edit; 

In the early 1960’s when the Black Jack spl was getting long in the tooth because of the new rear engine cars like McLaren Jack Baker was still winning regional championships. He’d have fun racing in the big national races. But he would also go to every regional event because of free entry for instructors.  

He even won a professional endurance race at Elkhart Lake. He qualified something like 12th based on speed but his secret was the reliability of that Jaguar  plus it’s fuel mileage. ( and the fact he had a 48 gallon gas tank) 

Steady pace, reliable car and no stops beat much faster cars that stopped 4-5 times for fuel!  That was the hi-light of his racing career.  

I'm not sure what I'm missing here. When I look at the RE-71Rs on TireRack for a 2001 miata and a '98 M3, the price difference for the suggested size and even a couple alternate sizes are within $30 of each other for a set of 4. Did Bridgestone up the prices?

Specifically, it was a 205/45/R16 for the Miata and 225/45/R17 for the M3. Then I clicked around to some of the alternate sizes in 17", like 235/45/R17 and 245/40/R17.

245-40-17 tires are cheap.  Maybe not as cheap as 205 tires, but they're still cheap.  Particularly compared to anything larger, that a more modern 4 door (Evo?) sedan will need to be fun at auto-x.

I'd be far more concerned about OGCS (Old German Car Syndrome) where weird wiring stuff happens.  Can't tell you how many times something would just stop working on my E36 M3.  I'd open the fuse box, pop out the fuse, which was perfect, put in another fuse and everything would work again.  That kind of kooky behavior is normal on older german cars, let alone mechanical stuff wearing out.

So tires are the least of your concerns.  If tire price is keeping you from buying one, that's an impediment to buying any other car right now.

This concept is what's been keeping me from autocrossing a big heavy ESP or CAM thing, and instead running a Miata for 6 years.  A set of bridgestones for the Miata can be $400 if you hit the sales right.  Big ol' 17" or 18" stuff is darn near that much PER TIRE.

But I'm kind of itching for a change so I am trying to get over that hump.

As for cone racing, there's two sides of it.  You can bring anything out and find someone you're a little slower than, and try to beat 'em.  And I say that as someone who considers outside of the top5 in PAX to be a bad day in one car - but I'll still run 3-6 events a year in other "noncompetitive" or borrowed cars because it's a hoot.

z31maniac said:

I understand. I think just two rear tires on the 135i were $475 installed? 245/35/18 Pilot Super Sport (run flats)

That's why I think an ND2 is in the near future. 

Why in Dog's name would you be considering run-flats for autoX use?

You want some 200 tread wear tires and a light set of wheels to 'cross it on. Keep them in the garage in trash bags when you are not 'crossing.

I'm at 5 years and 50k on my "e36 m3" and I can't say I'd ever recommend one to anybody but in the same breath I'll tell you how much I love that car and that I want to keep it til it dies or I do. Mechanically I've only had typical e36 problems, cooling system and window regulator. Oh, and my S52 drinks oil at 1800mpg.  One of the best things I've done to my M3Ti is moving to cheaper tires. It was eating 300tw BFG Sport Comp 2s at $145 so I switched to 240tw Federal SS595s at $65 and I couldn't be happier. They aren't as grippy as 200tw track tires but they're not bad. On a car that eats tires I find that fully worth it. Plus they're good in the rain. For reference I run 235/75r17 square. You can squeeze a bit more tire under there with the exact right offset wheel and a good fender pull.

bentwrench said:

z31maniac said:

I understand. I think just two rear tires on the 135i were $475 installed? 245/35/18 Pilot Super Sport (run flats)

That's why I think an ND2 is in the near future. 

Why in Dog's name would you be considering run-flats for autoX use?

You want some 200 tread wear tires and a light set of wheels to 'cross it on. Keep them in the garage in trash bags when you are not 'crossing.

I don't AutoX. I was merely pointing out that larger tires are more expensive, that's to be expected. The car came with runflats stock because the sizes are staggered and no spare. 

RedGT said:

This concept is what's been keeping me from autocrossing a big heavy ESP or CAM thing, and instead running a Miata for 6 years.  A set of bridgestones for the Miata can be $400 if you hit the sales right.  Big ol' 17" or 18" stuff is darn near that much PER TIRE.

But I'm kind of itching for a change so I am trying to get over that hump.

 

As for cone racing, there's two sides of it.  You can bring anything out and find someone you're a little slower than, and try to beat 'em.  And I say that as someone who considers outside of the top5 in PAX to be a bad day in one car - but I'll still run 3-6 events a year in other "noncompetitive" or borrowed cars because it's a hoot.

When I autocross, it’s a lot of standing around until it’s my turn then a couple of minutes of flailing followed by more standing around.  Oh guys in your class may come by and “suggest” this or that to buy try and etc.  

Chasing  the faster guy is only fun if you have some reason to believe you’ll be successful. If his car is going to be faster than yours and your only hope is him making a mistake it happens too rare to be an encouragement. 

While wheel to wheel has more intense, err focus?  No that’s not correct.  Hmmm, car to car interaction.  ( boy, I’m doing a lousy job of explaining) You watch the other car looking for a way to pass even if it makes your lap time suffer. Or watch to see how to defend your position.  Maybe by driving in deeper to block the outside pass or positioning your car to prevent his faster acceleration from setting you up at the exit.   

Nonsense!!  It’s just fun to dice with someone for 15 or 20 minutes at a time, passing or being passed!  

Actually in wheel to wheel road racing drivers regularly make mistakes. Even the best. Putting a good section together at the right moment may be all that’s required. More of a chess game than a checkers. Thinking several moves ahead.  

I’ve almost always come in after a session with great big grin on my face that doesn’t go away soon.  If I beat him, I’ll try to help him so next time he has a good chance of beating me.  

Miatas seem to be an outlier in the "cheap tires" realm. Nearly any other car will have a larger wheel/tire combo that is more costly. And 245/40/17's are not that expensive, either. Ever see prices for Mustangs or Corvettes or whatever?

I love my E36 M3 and would absolutely have another as a DD, too. E46 330i is a better street car (nicer inside) but uses the same "expensive" tire size. 

If your budget will only allow for a skinny 15" tire then the Miata or other older cars are your options.

E36 is such a common platform among racers and HPDE folks that you should have zero problem finding used race tires really cheap.

Bimmerworld used to sell Continentals with a handful of heat cycles in E36 sizes for around $100 each. Just buy a second set of 17" wheels and snap up whatever used R-comps come your way.

LanEvo said:

E36 is such a common platform among racers and HPDE folks that you should have zero problem finding used race tires really cheap.

Bimmerworld used to sell Continentals with a handful of heat cycles in E36 sizes for around $100 each. Just buy a second set of 17" wheels and snap up whatever used R-comps come your way.

When hundredths or even 10ths of a second separate cars used tires definitely put you in the second tier.  

Wheel to wheel is not so exacting. 

Frenchy, my first career was racing harness horses. You're driving, not riding, and tactically it's somewhat similar to road course racing. 

I'm sure it would be fun, but I'm a lot less likely to hurt myself (or the car) dodging cones.

Hey Doc,  

I have an e36 M3/4/5 I will probably be selling in a year. not sure of your urgency of getting into an e36.  We can chat on the 9th at MSCC.  

All I am arguing is that tiny fractions of a second don't have to separate you from having fun in either racing.

I suppose it depends on how competitive you need to be.   You can run an E36 M3 on semi-high performance tires, like the BFG Comp Sport 2, and enjoy the heck out of it, but you won't be winning any autocross events.    If you need to be competitive to have fun, well, you'll have to ante up for the stickier rubber, and head down the sliding slope of expenses you'll need to remain competitive.  This is true for any car you want to be competitive in.  

If you are just out to have fun, autocross occasionally, and run a track day here and there---- less sticky rubber / minor mods will do the trick. 

I enjoy the heck out of my E36 M3 on the street, track, and at the occasional autocross.   Keep in mind though that I could care less where I finish, or what class they decide to throw my car into.   I'm there for the fun, the people, and the experience.  Sure I want to win, but do I really need another plastic trophy on my mantle?  No.... no I don't.   

If you aren't having fun unless you are at the pointy end of the field, but you also have limited resources--- stick with a car that has low consumable costs---- and be sure that car is classed competitively.   Otherwise, buy a car that turns you on, and go have fun with it!  

In reply to Floating Doc :

You may be right. I don’t know you but if you’re doing well with cones. Not knocking them all over, not hurting your car while doing it?  You have every reason to believe wheel to wheel racing will be the same.  

Most clubs have track day events where you can dip your toe in the water and see sorta what it’ feels like.  

Maybe out of the box thinking will let you find a solution you like that you previously hadn’t considered.  

However you are the real judge.  Whatever you decide is fine.  If I’m out of line I do apologize.