We really could learn a thing or two from the way they train drivers in western Europe.

And the way they do annual vehicle inspections. I've never seen an inspection so thorough on a car's systems, it's not just an emissions and tire check like in the US. In Belgium (where I was living at the time) they go way in depth with headlight alignment checks, stopping over a pit with platforms that move the wheels side to side to check balljoints, bushings, tie rods, etc. from under the car. Then you stop on a vibrating platform to check the shocks. Then the car goes on some rollers to make sure the brakes generate the proper amount of force. It's VERY thorough and at first I didn't like it, but then I thought of the average American driver and their complete lack of ability to take care of their car, and how that lack of care could affect ME, and then I was ok with it, since my car always passed with flying colors anyways.

Let me put it this way, the next time some shiney happy person in a beat up piece of E36 M3 is tailgating you on the highway, think of this and the bald tires that are likely around them:

N Sperlo wrote: In reply to e_pie: The drivers also respect eachother. They move for passing vehicles. No need to pass on the right usually.

Indeed, in the two years I lived there I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I passed on the right.

e_pie wrote: We really could learn a thing or two from the way they train drivers in western Europe. And the way they do annual vehicle inspections. I've never seen an inspection so thorough on a car's systems, it's not just an emissions and tire check like in the US. In Belgium (where I was living at the time) they go way in depth with headlight alignment checks, stopping over a pit with platforms that move the wheels side to side to check balljoints, bushings, tie rods, etc. from under the car. Then you stop on a vibrating platform to check the shocks. Then the car goes on some rollers to make sure the brakes generate the proper amount of force. It's *VERY* thorough and at first I didn't like it, but then I thought of the average American driver and their complete lack of ability to take care of their car, and how that lack of care could affect ME, and then I was ok with it, since my car always passed with flying colors anyways. Let me put it this way, the next time some shiney happy person in a beat up piece of E36 M3 is tailgating you on the highway, think of this and the bald tires that are likely around them:

That's all well and good if you have one or two cars, but would be a major hassle for a collector. I couldn't imagine going through a process like that for all of my cars and motorcycles....it would take forever.

In reply to e_pie:

What-just cause you didn't think of the latest trick national level autocrossers are using to shed weight/rotating mass you can't hate.

In reply to Cotton:

It would be a hassle if you collected cars, but if it got the morons in ill maintained cars off the road I think I'd be ok with it.

Hell if I was making enough money to have that large of a collection of cars I'd just pay someone to do it for me.

e_pie wrote: We really could learn a thing or two from the way they train drivers in western Europe. And the way they do annual vehicle inspections. I've never seen an inspection so thorough on a car's systems, it's not just an emissions and tire check like in the US. In Belgium (where I was living at the time) they go way in depth with headlight alignment checks, stopping over a pit with platforms that move the wheels side to side to check balljoints, bushings, tie rods, etc. from under the car. Then you stop on a vibrating platform to check the shocks. Then the car goes on some rollers to make sure the brakes generate the proper amount of force. It's *VERY* thorough and at first I didn't like it, but then I thought of the average American driver and their complete lack of ability to take care of their car, and how that lack of care could affect ME, and then I was ok with it, since my car always passed with flying colors anyways. Let me put it this way, the next time some shiney happy person in a beat up piece of E36 M3 is tailgating you on the highway, think of this and the bald tires that are likely around them:

Only one of my 4 regularly street driven vehicles has legal inspection and that is really just because my wife isn't as shrewd an outlaw as I and isn't at all interested in becoming one. They are all in tip-top... I just loathe the idea of having to go.

I am far to busy to sit in on the crappy inspection we have now so some tool can try to hold the sticker hostage to sell me brake pads or wiper blades. Much easier to just put a NJ lic plate on the front so the local cops don't bother looking at the stickers.

e_pie wrote: In reply to Cotton: It would be a hassle if you collected cars, but if it got the morons in ill maintained cars off the road I think I'd be ok with it. Hell if I was making enough money to have that large of a collection of cars I'd just pay someone to do it for me.

I understand your point, but part of the reason I can afford the cars is because I do all my own work, get discounts using collector car insurance, and save where I can in other areas. I'm not Jay Leno....I can't afford to have a staff on hand to smog my vehicles for me.

I was in san francisco for a day last week and had the misfortune to be driving. EVERYONE in cars and walking is texting, or blogging, or whatever with their little computers. It was nuts- completely out of control and idiotically unsafe. The whole place was a Darwin Award. The evil government is going to respond to their insurance buddies and start legislating this looming existential threat to the motherland into some sort of submission. Not that that caused the accident in the O.P.s sad report, but it would not surprise me in the least if it was the case.

One more lesson.... Don't EVER turn your wheels if you are waiting to make a left turn. Keep them straight until you are actually making the turn. Teach your loved ones THAT lesson VERY well.

Had never even considered that. Thanks for the tune-up. On a related note, a conversation last week at autozone. Guy in front of me is replacing the alternator on his car. Has not really worked on cars before. Asks the guy behind the counter "How do I do it?"

Guy behind the counter says "Well, you'll have to get three bolts loose - two on top, one on bottom here" (points to diagram on screen.) You'll probably have to jack the car up and get under it to get that last one out. Put the new one on, check the belt deflection and you're good to go!

Me: "You missed a couple steps there chief; aside from the fact that at least one of those bolts is going to be rusted/rounded/etc."

Guy turns around annoyed. No one says anything to me. I ask homeboy if he has a set of jack stands.

Homeboy: "No." (Chuckles...in a way which leads me to believe he doesn't know what a jack stand is.)

Me: "Yeah, that's pretty funny. Know what else is funny? My buddy had a friend whose wife and kid watched him die under a truck that he had supported on cinder blocks. Neither one of them knew how to use the jack. His name was John Ingram. My buddy had to go to Texas and sell all of John's Datsun stuff for him so his wife could pay for the funeral. Buy a set of berkeleying jackstands or get someone else to work on the car. If your wife's home, show her how to use the jack."

"...Oh, and you might want to pull the berkeleying negative battery cable before you go berkeleying with the alternator."

Homeboy: "Maybe I should just get someone else to do it."

Not even a thank you.

I'm blown away by how bad people are at reading the cars around them when I'm forced to be a passenger. I look as far down the road as possible, as I was taught, and let my peripheral vision work. If there are brake lights or a trailer weaving a bit, at the very least I'm off the throttle and ready to press the brakes. As a passenger on the highway, there's usually 3 or more seconds between when I start quietly uttering "uuuuuh uuuuuh uuuuuh" and the point at which the driver even starts to react. IF they react. It's gotten so bad that I just can't look out the windshield.

I'm paranoid as hell about keeping an escape route open and trying not to leave my rear end exposed. There's simply never a time on a busy road when you're going to be able to apply the brakes at even 1/2 their capacity without getting hit. I've either got two kids in the back or and driving the Miata and it's a constant worry.

Twice in the last six months I've watched someone initiate a lane change, realize they're about to hit someone, and then jerk the wheel fast enough to get the car started on its way to a spin. Then there were the people who got run over by semis. Never drive next to a large truck any longer than you need to. I've seen two cars go under those wheels. The speed with which they're sucked in and spat out is terrifying.

Moreover it's just so incredibly rare to ride with someone who gives you any sense that they have a feel for what the car is doing. Maybe you can't get that without track time or hooning? It's so esoteric to a normal person that what do you even say? Um, boy, your steering is pretty uneven and you correct your direction a lot! And wow, are you braking all the way through every damn turn? Have you considered the possibility that merging onto the highway and navigating a parking lot require a different amount of throttle? And that the brake has more than merely an off, on and panic position? There's water on the road! You're carrying a whole lot of tension in your upper boddy and gripping the wheel too tight! That maybe you should keep two hands on the wheel?

I feel safer at track days than on the drive home.

Ditto on all of your post: I insist on driving, veiled as a courtesy, as close to 100% of time as I can get. I know 4-5 drivers I trust. They are all people who have oodles of sense, are gearheads, or grew up somewhere mistakes operating machines matter. I swear- the little computer thing is a epidemic in urban California, and it is going to spread.

ppddppdd wrote: I'm blown away by how bad people are at reading the cars around them when I'm forced to be a passenger. I look as far down the road as possible, as I was taught, and let my peripheral vision work. If there are brake lights or a trailer weaving a bit, at the very least I'm off the throttle and ready to press the brakes. As a passenger on the highway, there's usually 3 or more seconds between when I start quietly uttering "uuuuuh uuuuuh uuuuuh" and the point at which the driver even starts to react. IF they react. It's gotten so bad that I just can't look out the windshield. I'm paranoid as hell about keeping an escape route open and trying not to leave my rear end exposed. There's simply never a time on a busy road when you're going to be able to apply the brakes at even 1/2 their capacity without getting hit. I've either got two kids in the back or and driving the Miata and it's a constant worry. Twice in the last six months I've watched someone initiate a lane change, realize they're about to hit someone, and then jerk the wheel fast enough to get the car started on its way to a spin. Then there were the people who got run over by semis. *Never* drive next to a large truck any longer than you need to. I've seen two cars go under those wheels. The speed with which they're sucked in and spat out is terrifying. Moreover it's just so incredibly rare to ride with someone who gives you any sense that they have a feel for what the car is doing. Maybe you can't get that without track time or hooning? It's so esoteric to a normal person that what do you even say? Um, boy, your steering is pretty uneven and you correct your direction a lot! And wow, are you braking all the way through every damn turn? Have you considered the possibility that merging onto the highway and navigating a parking lot require a different amount of throttle? And that the brake has more than merely an off, on and panic position? There's water on the road! You're carrying a whole lot of tension in your upper boddy and gripping the wheel too tight! That maybe you should keep two hands on the wheel? I feel safer at track days than on the drive home.

I was never told about not having your wheel turned while sitting. I learned it the hard way. 20 years later I still have serious and chronic back problems. I was rear-ended, the car when in the air (not high I'm sure, but the tires we off the ground according to the bystanders) and landed in on-coming traffic. I think God the woman that could have hit me (oncoming driver) didn't.

I drive my wife nuts because she never thinks I'm looking at the car in front of me, and that I don't react quickly enough.

What she doesn't realize is that I've been scanning the mirrors continually, not just looking out the window, and that I've actually been watching 3 cars ahead, realized it's just a minor brake check, and there is no need to slow down because everybody is going to be back up to speed by the time I do.

DrBoost said: I think God the woman that could have hit me

Whoa! god is a woman? and she was driving in the oncoming lane? crazy

Shaun said: Ditto on all of your post: I insist on driving, veiled as a courtesy, as close to 100% of time as I can get. I know 4-5 drivers I trust. They are all people who have oodles of sense, are gearheads, or grew up somewhere mistakes operating machines matter. I swear- the little computer thing is a epidemic in urban California, and it is going to spread.

Please don't judge all California drivers based on your experience in SF. The city is just the place where we put the jackholes that nobody else wants around especially those who don't know how to drive. Seriously I HATE driving in SF. I would rather hang out with the bums on public trans the drive in that place.

Shaun wrote: I insist on driving, veiled as a courtesy, as close to 100% of time as I can get.

I totally do this... Though I think a lot of people who know me would rather have me drive than feel like they're getting a driver's test, even though I usually keep my mouth shut.

poopshovel wrote: Me: "Yeah, that's pretty funny. Know what else is funny? My buddy had a friend whose wife and kid watched him die under a truck that he had supported on cinder blocks.

Maybe it is one of those "You had to be there" kinda jokes that is all in the delivery. I didn't think it was all that funny.

One of the best pieces of defensive driving advice I ever got was this...

Don't turn your wheel until you go to navigate the turn.

In reply to ppddppdd:

This is why I am glad I got my wife in to track days. Her driving used to scare the E36 M3 out of me at times, especially at night. Getting her out on the track has improved her on road situational awareness and abilities immensely. Now she drives at about the same level I do.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

poopshovel wrote: Me: "Yeah, that's pretty funny. Know what else is funny? My buddy had a friend whose wife and kid watched him die under a truck that he had supported on cinder blocks.

Maybe it is one of those "You had to be there" kinda jokes that is all in the delivery. I didn't think it was all that funny.

Lawlz.

True story: Me and the non-pink-shirt-wearing Canexican (it was his friend John who died under the truck by the way) were in THE same store trying to find truck shocks that would fit on the Boss Hong. We eventually worked our way behind the counter and were just grabbing and opening boxes, comparing what was in the box to a standard shock we'd brought in. About 20 minutes in, there was a shift change and this wirey old white haired dude who looks like Hank Hill's Dad comes in. He's not pleased that we're back there, but we keep him entertained long enough to get what we need.

After 20 minutes of dumb Canexican jokes and general offensiveness, he'd had enough and says "Yeah? That's pretty berkeleying funny. Know what else is funny? I once killed 7 Vietnamese with a berkeleying entrenching tool." It was indeed pretty funny. What was even funnier was seeing him a few weeks later at the grocery store with his Vietnamese wife. I made little "jabby" motions at him and winked.

I digress.

Things I'd like to see done to improve drivers training:

1 Longer classes that consist of more wheel time than classroom time

2 Learning to drive a manual a requirement

3 At least one day of advanced driving techniques on a skidpad. Spin recovery, hard braking, emergency manuvers, and then maybe throw in an autox style portion at the end to piece it all together.

In reply to e_pie:

I would enroll in that right now. . .

Duke wrote: I drive my wife nuts because she never thinks I'm looking at the car in front of me, and that I don't react quickly enough. What she doesn't realize is that I've been scanning the mirrors continually, not just looking out the window, and that I've actually been watching 3 cars ahead, realized it's just a minor brake check, and there is no need to slow down because everybody is going to be back up to speed by the time I do.

I get yelled at for this a lot.

Capt Slow wrote:

DrBoost said: I think God the woman that could have hit me

Whoa! god is a woman? and she was driving in the oncoming lane? crazy

Shaun said: Ditto on all of your post: I insist on driving, veiled as a courtesy, as close to 100% of time as I can get. I know 4-5 drivers I trust. They are all people who have oodles of sense, are gearheads, or grew up somewhere mistakes operating machines matter. I swear- the little computer thing is a epidemic in urban California, and it is going to spread.

Please don't judge all California drivers based on your experience in SF. The city is just the place where we put the jackholes that nobody else wants around especially those who don't know how to drive. Seriously I HATE driving in SF. I would rather hang out with the bums on public trans the drive in that place.

I'm in there every day. I don't see any of that. I see more soccer moms doing that when I'm back home in the burbs than people in SF city proper.

poopshovel wrote: After 20 minutes of dumb Canexican jokes and general offensiveness, he'd had enough and says "Yeah? That's pretty berkeleying funny. Know what else is funny? I once killed 7 Vietnamese with a berkeleying entrenching tool." It was indeed pretty funny. What was even funnier was seeing him a few weeks later at the grocery store with his Vietnamese wife. I made little "jabby" motions at him and winked.

Now that is funny schit.

ppddppdd wrote: Twice in the last six months I've watched someone initiate a lane change, realize they're about to hit someone, and then jerk the wheel fast enough to get the car started on its way to a spin.

Just yesterday there was a crash in Minneapolis - some young guy was driving along and entered a construction zone. He thought he was too close to the Jersey barrier, jerked the wheel and lost control. He spun into the ditch, and killed two construction workers who were standing there.