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roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand New Reader
7/8/15 1:58 a.m.

I've been taking some time to consider my next weekend/project/occasional track car. I've also been on several test drives here lately trying to narrow down my ever-growing list! For reference, this is what I plan on doing with the car:

-It will be used to commute at least 1-2 days a week when possible. Most of the time I'm by myself, so a back seat isn't necessary. For the times when I need to use a back seat (aka hauling the family around), I have my daily driver- 2015 Subaru WRX.

-I would like something to tinker with occasionally. I no longer modify my primary daily driver; but I like tinkering/modding cars in my free time. No plans for crazy $20k+ motor swaps; just basic bolt-ons and fine tuning, done over time.

-I would like a car that can help me grow as a driver. I've been to a performance driving school, but that was ~4 years ago, and to say I'm extremely rusty would be accurate. The last track/autoX event I've attended was around ~3-4 years ago, and even before then, I would consider myself a novice driver, or intermediate at best. I certainly have a lot to work on! Starting this fall, my schedule will change pretty drastically, and I'll finally have time to get back out there! Over this past year, my financial situation has also changed fairly drastically- again for the better. So, I'll finally have the time and means necessary to get some seat time!

-I won't be using the car for any race series. I'll only be running maybe a handful of HPDE track days a year and a few local autoX events when I can. Maybe a fun run up Pikes Peak or two. Nothing crazy or overly competitive.

-I live on the west side of Denver. As a bonus, I live within ~20 minutes of some of the best driving/mountain/canyon roads on earth! I enjoy going on a spirited mountain drive whenever possible! It would be a shame to let such great roads to go waste. As such, a big part of my selection process has come down to the question: “how comfortable would I be going around tight mountain corners in 'X' car?” Granted, I have no intentions of pushing any vehicle to its limits on a public road (even if it is generally uninhabited) and the safety of myself and others is always paramount in my mind. With that said, I've used my favorite canyon road to evaluate several vehicles over the years. I find it gives me a way to get a good feel for the car's throttle response, steering responsiveness/feedback, suspension, gearbox and brakes. Some of the vehicles I've driven have given me the distinct feeling of “this car might be fun on a closed course, but I don't feel comfortable playing with it in the mountains”. I've gotten that sensation from several cars that felt like they were fighting you in the bends, or had poor steering feedback, or cars that were prone to snap oversteer.

With all of that said, I've made a checklist of the things I'm looking for in a car:

-Absolutely under $10k all in. Preferably under $7-8k if possible. This doesn't count “mod money” per se, as the car can be built up slowly over time.

-Relatively light weight.

-RWD. I have an AWD daily. I have no interest in mixing FWD with sporty track/mountain driving. RWD only.

-I would prefer a naturally aspirated motor for simplicity sake (aka I don't want turbo car problems during 20+ minute track sessions). I would go supercharger before I would consider turbo, but still prefer NA. I would consider boosted cars, but generally only if they're known to be reliable under stress.

-It has to run. I'm not interested in rolling shells.

-No salvage titles or cars that have been heavily abused, highly modded or generally beat to hell. Relatively clean cars are a must. I have no intentions of trying to fix someone else's mistakes. In my experience, its generally cheaper to buy a stock car than it is to pay to fix the mistakes of others that sold their cars out of frustration.

-Power doesn't interest me nearly as much as sporty handling. Neither interest me nearly as much as the smiles-per-hour factor.

-Convertibles are a pro and a con as they have high smiles-per-hour factors, but that would also mean I need a roll bar to run at the 2 tracks closest to me. By convertibles, I mean roadsters that were designed as convertibles. I have absolutely no interest in sedans/coupes that were modified from the factory to be convertibles; as those cars as generally fairly “floppy” and add a ton of weight to the car.

-Manual transmission only.

With those desires in mind, I've already been hard at work trying to narrow down my list. Here are a few cars that have been pretty much scratched off of my list:

-Honda S2000. In my area I can't hardly find one for under $10k, and when I do, they're modded and beat to death, or have salvage titles, ect. I've also driven 2 of them (both AP1's) and I can't get past the steering- its numb and lifeless and doesn't build resistance when pushed. I've driven numerous other cars with EPS that were far better and far more confidence inspiring (also, much newer, so not a fair comparison). Don't get me wrong, they're extremely responsive (felt more like a race-car than a street car...), I just couldn't tell what the front wheels were doing. The cars also just felt twitchy and the rear end wanted to come out more easily than I would have liked. I know, I'm pretty sure many people will disagree, but that was my take-away. Don't get me wrong, I would probably still own one, but they're beyond my budget anyway.

-Nissan 350Z. The car feels heavier than it is. I drove a 2003 recently, and it was NOT confidence inspiring in the canyons at all. The car doesn't feel like it wants to transition quickly. I'm sure it will, but you're really fighting it. The brakes were also not confidence inspiring (I didn't get to drive the Track pack Brembo's, only base model brakes). There was a lot of body roll for a car that rides so rough. The steering had good feedback and a nice weight, but it just wasn't very responsive. It just felt clumsy. The car weighs around the same as my 2015 WRX, has a better weight distribution (53/47 vs 60/40) and feels like it would be stiffly sprung; but in the canyons you'd never know it. My WRX feels considerably lighter, more responsive, flatter and more confidence inspiring, all while having better ride quality! I get the cars are ~12 years apart and I shouldn't expect an older car to compare to my newer daily, but I just expected more of a car with such sporting intentions. It just wasn't very fun. I know they had some suspension revisions as time went on, but it felt more like a porky GT car than a sports car. Too bad, as I wanted to like this car, I really did. Maybe mods can fix the Z's issues, but in stock form, there's more fun cars for your money (even if they are “slower”).

-Toyota MR2 (MK2 and MK3/Spyder). I've owned a 1991 MR2 Turbo many years ago when I was still in the military. Fun cars! Not what I would call “forgiving” to say the least! I'm just not interested in another one at this time....

...I drove the MR2 Spyder recently. On paper it looks like a hoot- 2200 lbs and MR layout! I even fit pretty comfortably in it (I'm 6'2” 210 lbs), which was shocking. It has a quick steering rack, but I found it wasn't as responsive as I thought it would have been.... everything creaked and rattled.... it drove just fine, but I didn't really feel involved, and honestly, I didn't think it was very fun. Oh, I had daydreams about 2ZZ motor swaps and such, but in stock form, it just didn't do anything for me. I can see why the old NB Miata out-sold it handily. Everything just felt “bland” and uninspired. Again, I really wanted to like this car, it just didn't do anything for me.

-NA/NB Miata. I've owned both (1990 1.6L and a 2004 MSM). I loved both of them! They both always put a smile on my face! That is after I shoe-horned myself inside! I did foamectomy's and all the traditional “tall guys mods”, but I was never comfortable in either of them. They were both fine for short commutes, but I was always cramped and they were taxing to drive on longer trips. But they made up for it with a high smiles-per-hour factor! I might still consider anyone one, but there's one issue: I can now afford the roomier, stiffer chassis NC!

With that said, I've really just narrowed my list down to 3 vehicles:

-Mazda RX-8. The last one I drove was a riot! Everything just felt “right”. The steering was perfectly weighted and responsive. The chassis felt solid. The seats fit me perfectly. The brakes were easy to modulate and felt strong. The shifter was smooth and even though it didn't have a ton of power, the rotary was a lot of fun to spin to 9000rpm! The car felt extremely neutral and balanced. The rear comes out right when you expect it to and its easy to reel in. Also great forward visibility and perfect pedal position. Yes, I'm very familiar with the drawbacks of the rotary (fuel economy, reliability, low torque, ect) and I've done a lot of reading about pre-mixing, the SOHN adapter (great idea!), piss poor coil packs (fixed easily with BHR kit apparently), destroying catalytic converters (BHR also makes a nice resonated test pipe), needing to be revved to burn off carbon, ect. Honestly, I'm not all that intimidated by it, even if I should be! My only major gripes about the RX-8 were headroom (I need a hardtop/base version) and the weakest A/C on earth. Other than that, I couldn't wipe the smile off of my face while driving it! It felt like what it is- a larger, slightly quicker, more capable Miata the revs to 9k!

-NC Miata. I've driven several of them (all NC1's)... the suspension is rubbish. It has way too much roll; which is easily solved. Even so, the car was a ton of fun in the canyons! The light weight shined in spite of the suspension! Great steering feedback and response! Solid brakes, great pedal position (easy to heel-toe), great visibility, good shifter, ect. It's not fast by any means, but it has solid mid-range torque, which made it feel peppy... and if the motor ever popped, the Ford/Mazda 2.5L swaps right in for dirt cheap! Chassis felt much more solid than the old NA/NB and I was much more comfortable interior space wise. My only real complaints were the seats were garbage, the suspension was too soft and the car got blown around easily on the freeway by higher speed cross winds. At least 2 of those things are very easy to solve (aftermarket seats and suspension). I think a lower aftermarket suspension, wider/stickier tires and a solid alignment (more positive caster) should also help the higher speed stability significantly as well. Overall though, still a fun car... I don't think I enjoyed it as much as the RX-8, but it definitely has quite a few advantages: weight, reliability, fuel economy, drop top when you want it (pro and a con), ect.

-BMW E36 M3. I haven't driven one yet. They seem to be the go-to car in this price range. I know about the cooling system issues and interiors that fall apart... I also know about the stout motors, brakes, factory LSD's, 50/50 weight distribution and the huge aftermarket for them. I know they're very capable vehicles that people praise regularly. I also know that I've enjoyed the steering on just about every older BMW I've ever driven. Replacing a cooling system as preventative maintenance isn't very concerning to me. However, being a potentially 20 year old car is; mostly due to rust, electrical problems, ect. I also don't know if it will have the same fun factor as the Mazda's listed above? No doubt its faster (especially in a straight line), but its also a heavier car with struts up from (vs double wishbones for the Mazda's).

So, there it is. Sorry for the novel; I'm just trying to be thorough. Anything I'm missing or not considering that I should be?

Thoughts?

Personal experiences?

Thanks in advance!

-Brandon

JohnRW1621
JohnRW1621 UltimaDork
7/8/15 5:18 a.m.

Naturally, the answer is Miata and then add a Colorado based, Flyin' Miata catalog for endless, reliable, proven tinkering.

Another thought, BMW Z3-Coupe. I hear that rough examples are now priced down near Challenge prices. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/my-dd-is-near-challenge-money/103347/page1/

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UltraDork
7/8/15 5:30 a.m.

Sure sounded like Miata is the answer reading the first 1/2 of your post.

whenry
whenry New Reader
7/8/15 7:21 a.m.

After years of Miata ownership, I decided to do something different and now have a '03 MR-2 Spyder. It took a few tries to get comfortable with the car but with new struts and a "square" wheel setup rather than the stock stagger, I am quite satisfied with the handling. The Spyder will never have the aftermarket support of a Miata but this car is the closest thing you can find to an Elise

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
7/8/15 7:27 a.m.

NC Miata would be the answer for me if it could have a simple roll bar setup.

One that doesn't meet sanctioning body standards or has to be adjustable and remove parts of the car isn't acceptable to me.

fornetti14
fornetti14 GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/8/15 9:07 a.m.

The E36 M3 is my answer. Hard top convertible if you want some sun.
I think they will hold their value well over the next 5-10 years and people that autocross/track them don't wish for other cars.

motomoron
motomoron SuperDork
7/8/15 9:38 a.m.

e36 M3 is my answer as well. Mine started as a very nice sub-60k mile example about 8 years ago. It gradually ratcheted up until it was a pretty competitive NASA TTC car w/ all the suspension, cooling, power and safety that goes with that. And it was a terrible street car, largely due to the roll bar, seats, harnesses, noise, harshness, crazy-looking-ness, and that it looked like ass from sitting under piles of leaves and bird crap while I pursued racing my real race car. I'd pressure wash it, charge the battery and go instruct a track day 3 times a year and drive it 5 miles to keep the brakes unstuck every 3 months. The headliner was hanging, it was filthy inside and out. A disgrace and waste of a great car and the pile of money I have in it.

So I finally removed all the safety stuff, recovered the headliner, sunroof shuttle and C pillar trims, detailed the rest of the stock interior and put it back together. I've driven it nearly every day the past month. It's a GREAT street car. I need to replace the spherical bearings in the top shock mounts to rememdy a clunk, I'll run a bit less spring and get some more street friendly tires and brake pads than are on it now. But it's fast, fun, not too crazy, good sounding but not loud on the highway commute, and it still makes me look over my shoulder as I walk away from it in a parking lot. It'll still run track sessions all day long at 90%.

They're past the bottom of the depreciation curve, so I'd find one soomer than later. FWIW, e46 M3s are still on the way down. Better street cars if you want a little more modern and a bit more plush.

Now:

Then:

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
7/8/15 9:44 a.m.

My personal preferences in the list you gave, in order:

1) MR2 Spyder. I think you drove a bad one. Stock for stock, they feel much more lively and solid compared to NBs to me.

2) RX8.

3) NC Miata

4) E36 M3

Basically, i think you have your main three ranked right, but you got soured on a bad example of an MR-S.

rcutclif
rcutclif GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/8/15 9:56 a.m.

There's a reason the word sh't is replaced with E36 M3. They are the sh't.

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke Dork
7/8/15 10:05 a.m.

I vote rx8. Most fun of your 3 IMO and should be easy to find a nice sport model in your price range.

docwyte
docwyte Dork
7/8/15 10:35 a.m.

M3 by far. The RX8 is already an anemic feeling car and that's not gonna be helped at all by our altitude. I live in S. Denver btw...

kanaric
kanaric Dork
7/8/15 10:42 a.m.
docwyte wrote: M3 by far. The RX8 is already an anemic feeling car and that's not gonna be helped at all by our altitude. I live in S. Denver btw...

Any car that high is going to feel weird.

Got he Pikes Peak hillclimb route and go turbo, lol. Get a 135i.

chuckles
chuckles HalfDork
7/8/15 10:44 a.m.

What you say about the RX8 seems to answer your own question.

Not everybody has bad experiences with E36 interiors. FWIW.

bgkast
bgkast GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/8/15 10:50 a.m.

I think you nailed it with the m3, rx8 and NC options

Trackmouse
Trackmouse Reader
7/8/15 11:58 a.m.

First off- how old are (be serious) and what kinda job are you working?

Those two questions are really involved. A 20 yr old guy working at McDonald's is probably not going to get an rx8 or m3. He certainly won't like the repeated maintenance bills...

Now if your 30 something and make 50k a year, try it out. Otherwise buy an ae86 or ra64. Great chassis' for what you want.

Dietcoke
Dietcoke New Reader
7/8/15 12:13 p.m.

Saturn sky redline or solstice gxp will run circles around all the cars you listed.

amg_rx7
amg_rx7 SuperDork
7/8/15 12:18 p.m.

RX8 or NC Miata are the answers

Mike
Mike GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/8/15 12:31 p.m.

Yep, Z3 and Boxster could be put here too.

I also think you should try another MR-2 if you think you like the formula. I've driven one, and loved it.

Desmond
Desmond Reader
7/8/15 1:19 p.m.

You simply cant beat an E36 M3 for a DD/track car. Not for the price. The performance, the aftermarket support, the ease of wrenching on it, the space for tools and tires... Yeah, you wont beat it.

However, they have a number of very annoying little quirks that come along with being a German "high performance sport sedan".

drdisque
drdisque Reader
7/8/15 2:35 p.m.

One car you haven't listed: C5 Corvette (FRC or Targa).

Can be found in the price range (granted with high mileage) Naturally Aspirated Good handling Doesn't need extra safety equipment to do a track day. Tuneable Good driver space

Solstice/Sky/135i are good suggestions but not in his price range. Maybe you could find a high mileage base model Solstice under $10k. But then you'd be kicking yourself for not spending the extra money for a ZOK.

motomoron
motomoron SuperDork
7/8/15 2:41 p.m.

More e36 M3 thoughts; once you take care of the deferred maintenance and make them cool and oil reliably they're bulletproof, really. I have and love an '89 build NA Miata that had it's $3800 purchase price more than doubled with a single order from FM, but they're from different planets. The M3 cost it's original owner more than forty long, and there's just a level of build quality and solidity the extra money buys over most anything else on the list. Unless you're really, really fast - like you'd run near the front on say NASA GTS2 - new bushings, a set of decent coilovers, tires, pads, fluid and lines will get you going pretty fast. Get a better cooling system when it's due, and suck it up and safety wire the oil pump nut.

Can't beat it.

Hell, just the support from Bimmerworld is practically justification enough.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 SuperDork
7/8/15 7:27 p.m.

Drive the E36 M3 and C5, but it sounds like you like the RX-8 the best.

JtspellS
JtspellS SuperDork
7/8/15 7:40 p.m.
  1. RX8, the newest one you can afford is the better idea (FYI if you get an NC you can use most the suspension parts from an RX as an upgrade)

  2. E36 M3, Loved my old E36 and still kinda miss it, once you replace all the weak bushings you are good to go.

  3. NC, again the later the better because the early models had sloppy body roll.

M2Pilot
M2Pilot HalfDork
7/8/15 9:33 p.m.

Love my M3. I've autocrossed it a couple of times & the car is far better than I am. I've done several HPDEs with it & it's better than I am for them too. Mine has been well kept/maintained & has zero rust. Except for the exterior plastic bits perishing it still looks great & runs great.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 SuperDork
7/9/15 9:51 a.m.

In reply to M2Pilot: The interior plastic bits perish, too.

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