Identify that sound, fresh engine death rattles edition

That may not be the noise but it is a indication of an oiling issue. The noise could have been the tappit's / lifters making noise due to not being pumped up with oil.

I would try putting pressure to the oiling system and see if oil gets to the top of the motor.

dean1484 wrote: That may not be the noise but it is a indication of an oiling issue. The noise could have been the tappit's / lifters making noise due to not being pumped up with oil.

Those tappets look like the 7Ms and 3Ss that I've worked with, they are not hydraulic and dont get pumped up with oil. Even though I agree it may be an oiling issue.

I do see enough oil in the pics for an engine that's been shut off overnight.

Slippery wrote:

dean1484 wrote: That may not be the noise but it is a indication of an oiling issue. The noise could have been the tappit's / lifters making noise due to not being pumped up with oil.

Those tappets look like the 7Ms and 3Ss that I've worked with, they are not hydraulic and dont get pumped up with oil. Even though I agree it may be an oiling issue. I do see enough oil in the pics for an engine that's been shut off overnight.

It's especially perplexing because it sure as heck does sound like a collapsed HLA... but it has solid lifters, not hydraulic!

I hate to say it but the engine builder could have done everything right and it is just an oil pump failure.

I also remember there being two different cranks for early and late motors. With the early ones having smaller journals. I wonder if there is a difference in oil pumps. Using a late pump on an early crank may cause a issue.

Take all this a grain of salt as it has been a while since I rebuilt these.

If it was me, I would remove the oil pan and check the rod bearings, maybe a main to check them.

I know you say that the noise came from the top, but if all the lifter "pills" are in place I would move elsewhere unless the problem is obvious.

I hope it wasn't a loud exhaust leak.

Definitely the first thing I'd do is put it back together and measure the valve clearances. One of them HAS to be way off.

Was the intake cam cover removed?

The mechanic finally called me just now to tell me first-hand what happened, he says he's pretty damn sure it had oil starvation and that most of the cam journals are damaged (suggesting he opened up more of them). He thinks the bottom end wouldn't necessarily make noise first if the engine was oil-starved. Now I basically have to decide what to do to attempt to diagnose this problem.

The goal is to have an engine that we're sure isn't going to E36 M3 the bed again while keeping unnecessary replacement of any parts to a minimum. I tried the "nuke it from orbit with parts, it's the only way to be sure" approach and it got me here, I can't afford that a second time.

I'm thinking we should reassemble the engine, check valve clearances, and check oil pressure with an external gauge. Sound good?

GameboyRMH wrote: The mechanic finally called me just now to tell me first-hand what happened, he says he's pretty damn sure it had oil starvation and that most of the cam journals are damaged (suggesting he opened up more of them). He thinks the bottom end wouldn't necessarily make noise first if the engine was oil-starved.

Get a new engine builder, seriously.

Was the oil pump primed or installed dry?

Oil pump was primed including pre-packing it with assembly lube, I know that.

Starting a rebuilt engine is always a leap of faith.

In your case, something failed to do what is was supposed to do.

So pick up the pieces and back to square one.

If it were my project I would keep disassembling as that is what needs to happen anyway. It is highly likely you will find the source of the issue on visual inspection of the parts. Sorry- I've been around a failed rebuild a couple times and it hurts. It should not happen when a professional does the work but it does.

GameboyRMH wrote: Now I basically have to decide what to do to attempt to diagnose this problem. The goal is to have an engine that we're sure isn't going to E36 M3 the bed again while keeping unnecessary replacement of any parts to a minimum. I'm thinking we should reassemble the engine, check valve clearances, and check oil pressure with an external gauge. Sound good?

I still haven't seen anything (except Knurled's example) that is a definitive noise maker....

as to a wiped journal... this one didn't make noise

How far away are you??

Oil pump drive is the same between the crankshafts

I'm also skeptical at this point that the cam journals are the source of the noise, even though the builder is convinced that they're totally trashed.

How far away am I? From the shop, my office is just a few miles away but about half an hour of driving. It's just a few minutes drive from my house, practically in the same neighborhood.

From you, IIRC you live in Oregon, so I'm roughly 4200 miles away

Shaun wrote: If it were my project I would keep disassembling as that is what needs to happen anyway. It is highly likely you will find the source of the issue on visual inspection of the parts. Sorry- I've been around a failed rebuild a couple times and it hurts. It should not happen when a professional does the work but it does.

These are the only tests I figured might be worth doing before complete disassembly, I know I'm probably not going to be able to avoid it...but you can't find out whether the oil pressure was good after disassembling, and it would suck to pull everything apart to find that it was a slightly bent valve, or a clogged oil passage that could be cleared without pulling the head off for example.

oldeskewltoy wrote: I still haven't seen anything (except Knurled's example) that is a definitive noise maker.... as to a wiped journal... this one didn't make noise How far away are you?? Oil pump drive is the same between the crankshafts

The only time I have ever seen a trashed cam journal cause a knocking noise like that was on a 4.6 Ford that a shady dealership "fixed" after it seized a cam by loosening all of the cam caps 2-3 turns. Yes it ran that way, for a few thousand miles!

The subtext is, I seriously do not believe that the cam journals are the problem.

I can see that and puling it apart does eliminate finding that oil pressure number as a data point. On the other hand the evidence I have seen indicates an oiling problem and I personally would choose to disassemble with that evidence as 'oil pressure' can be 'good' and the engine still very very bad. I would need to know exactly what is going on in there to trust it. I have built a handful of motors so grain of salt. With the two I helped with that developed knocking/tapping one had clogged oil passages in the crank coming back from a machine shop and was assembled that way, and the other machine shop material partially clogged a screen and impeded oil flow to the head. Neither problem would have been resolved without disassembly but the oil pressure was 'good' in both cases.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Shaun wrote: If it were my project I would keep disassembling as that is what needs to happen anyway. It is highly likely you will find the source of the issue on visual inspection of the parts. Sorry- I've been around a failed rebuild a couple times and it hurts. It should not happen when a professional does the work but it does.

These are the only tests I figured might be worth doing before complete disassembly, I know I'm probably not going to be able to avoid it...but you can't find out whether the oil pressure was good after disassembling, and it would suck to pull everything apart to find that it was a slightly bent valve, or a clogged oil passage that could be cleared without pulling the head off for example.

Any more news?

Should have news soon, the engine builder's gonna check valve clearances and oil pressure, the plan is if valve clearances are wrong we'll check for bent valves or worn shims, if oil pressure's abnormal we'll check for a stuck relief valve or (head-on-block reachable) blocked oil passages. If everything looks good then it's total disassembly time.

I've run engines until the camshaft came through the head into the combustion chamber, they didn't tap. The damage shown on yours isn't going to cause any rapping/tapping noises, in my opinion.

I agree with some others on the need for a different engine builder. There is nothing you are showing that is indicative of good work (again, imo), nor are the things you are reporting this person saying indicative of good work or good knowledge.

I strongly suspect you are in need of a new engine at this point. I have my doubts about how rebuildable the current engine is. Certainly any engine can be rebuilt, but there becomes a cost point where working with another engine makes better sense.

You need to have the bottom end opened up and looked at to make a more accurate assessment of the oil flow. There is no other way. The bearing and rod caps need to be pulled and things examined.

If the bottom end is indeed oily and fine, then the aformentioned incorrect head gasket installation is highly likely. Which indicates builder incompetence.

If the bottom end is also damaged, something went wrong with the oil pump and or installation. Not quite as indicative of builder incompetence, but certainly not a ringing bell of wonderful work either.

Believe me, if I had two pennies to rub together, I'd eat the cost of this guy's potential mistakes and take the car elsewhere just so I wouldn't have to deal with his "time management" and "communication skills." That's what I did over the last few months when the timing belt gave out, and when the flywheel got the rattles, but now I'm spent as the worst and most expensive automotive problem I've ever faced occurs. I'm also pretty sure at this point that the noise isn't caused by the cam journals.

That said, this guy has a pretty good engine building record, including with my G13A (rebuilt October 2014) which has been flawless internally. He used to like to brag that no engine he's built ever needed to be opened afterwards. So it's either an odd cockup for him or a "E36 M3 happens" situation. A few years ago, a local hyper-rich kid did one of the most decadent engine builds imaginable to a 2JZ, including flying in celebrity mechanics and tuners to work on it. Weapons-grade Speedhunters-baiting automotive pornography. And it blew up almost immediately. Sometimes E36 M3 happens.

Also keep in mind that a new 4AGE redtop would almost certainly have to be imported, which would mean buying a new engine also includes the cost of shipping mighty blocks of metal via air or sea, and then paying taxes on them that nearly double the purchase price.

Add 4 more valves and call it good. Wait, I think I've suggested that before.

Anyway, sorry about your problems there. If the mechanic won't stand behind it, pick up all your pieces and go home. My first engine rebuild was a Lotus Twincam. I had a local shop rebuild it. 5K miles later, I was holding #3 piston in my hand, or what was left of it, and I decided that I could screw up a motor just as well as a "professional shop" and I could do it a whole lot cheaper.

Saw the mechanic yesterday, he wants to just tear down the engine without doing any tests beforehand, and bench-test the oil pump afterward to see if it's good for reuse. To be fair this will most likely just save time and effort, but there's a small chance this will result in a lot of unnecessary disassembly and replacement. Even if it's a fairly safe gamble, it's one I can't afford to lose. So tomorrow morning I'm going to reassemble the top end and check the valve clearances myself. I have a feeler gauge set, an in/lb range torque wrench and I've seen a valve adjustment done on my G13A without special tools, so I should be able to get it done. If the problem turns out to be a slightly bent valve or even a worn shim, that could save a lot of time and effort.

This guy does like "nuke it from orbit" solutions, for example when I solved this problem he'd already given up, and was sitting down and reiterating that the Samurai needed a total re-wire. The wiring is indeed total crap and it could use a total re-wire, but the same wiring is still working more than a year later.

I still think more accurate diagnosis is needed. Have you pulled the pan? You can do this with the motor in the car and this would let you eliminate any issues with the bottom end and with some careful poking around you can get a look at the pistons as well. It would also let you see the oil pick up. If I remember there is an gasket / o ring for the pickup that if not installed you will get low or no oil pick up or oily oil pick up at higher RPM's and could have caused your problem. This could be diagnosed with out the head removed. This may get you enough oil pressure to lube the bottom end but not the head.

Also if you have oiling issues the order of failure that I have seen is that the wrist pins fail first then the rods then the mains but these two are almost simultaneously. This correlates to where you say the noise is coming from. The reason I can figure for this failure order is that the splashing of the oil in the pan is enough to keep the mains and rods lubricated where as the writs pins are much higher up and don't benefit from this.

I can also tell you that 4AGE's don't take well to being run with out oil pressure for any length of time. I botched a rebuild once and the wrist were wiped in less than 1 min after start up. You are saying that the sound is in the middle / upper end of the motor? I could be there is an issue with a piston. A wrist pin could have gone bad due to low oil pressure and the piston is hitting a valve or slapping in the cylindar of the pin is slapping in the piston or rod end.

Have you removed the oil filter? I would be taking that off to see if there is oil in it and then dissecting it to see if there is anything in it.

On start up I know you said you put assembly lube in the oil pump but did you spin the motor over with out the plugs in until you had oil pressure and the valve covers off before you started it? Assembly lube will leak back out of a oil pump over time (same as oil) depending on the configuration of the oil pump. I know those that use Vaseline as it will not run out while you assemble the rest of the motor. For the record I have never done that. I just pore oil in to the pump before assemble them so there is on oil film in them and assemble them and then spin the motor as noted above with the plugs out and the covers off till I get pressure and see oil in the top end. If I don't get pressure or don't see oil at the top end I don't start the motor. It is a PITA as you are excited to see a new motor run but once I started doing this I never had another motor fail for an oiling issue that I rebuilt (I had other failures that were part related)

I agree more diag needed. The picture you posted in your build thread did not look particularly frightening to me (probably should be addressed, but didn't look 'audible knock' frightening to me).

I might have missed it but did you try to spin the motor over by hand and listen? I would think if you had a major rotating assembly issue you could hear or feel the knock by hand. If you can feel the knock, you could determine where in the rotation it happens, which also gives you a bunch more info.

Would also make it really easy to see if any cam buckets were way out of spec on the gap.