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GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/22/16 12:20 p.m.

More diagnosis is needed, checking the valve clearance is an early part of it. Turning the engine over by hand is a good idea, I think I'll try that next. After that, checking the pan, filter contents and visible stuff in the bottom end will be the next steps. I'm not going to skip doing any of these. I'd like to get all of these done before any serious disassembly in fact.

I wasn't there for the first start but I'd be shocked if the builder tried to fire the engine right up without cranking with plugs out to build oil pressure first. I'm pretty sure he didn't check for oil coming to the top end though, because the valve covers were bolted down beforehand.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/22/16 8:46 p.m.

Cranking the motor and observing oil in the top end is one of several little things that separates good builders from really good builders. And if you screw one up and have to do it again on your dime it is a step that suddenly is really no big deal.

Ask me how I know.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/23/16 12:21 p.m.

More bad news, the valve clearances aren't terrible, here are my notes:

Targets: Intake 0.15-0.25mm, Exhaust 0.2-0.3mm

Intake Measurements:

Cyl1 pulley side too loose - fits 0.25

Cyl1 bellhousing side too tight - fits 0.10

Cyl2 pulley side too loose - fits 0.25, other OK

Cyl3 good

Cyl4 bellhousing side too tight - fits 0.1mm, other OK

Exhaust measurements:

Cyl1 pulley side too tight- fits 0.15, other OK

Cyl2 good

Cyl3 good

Cyl4 good

Tightened down all the valve caps and did some cranking, two mechanics watching agreed that oil flow looked insufficient. The cyl3 and cyl4 exhaust cams in particular seemed very dry.

Cyl3 intake cam cap:

Both valve covers off:

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/23/16 12:25 p.m.

New run testing video:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/tjMZFGee630

I'll go back later and try turning the engine by hand.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/23/16 12:27 p.m.

What are the CLEARANCES? Don't treat it like a go/no-go situation. Over .25mm could mean .26mm (still not going to make noise) or 3mm (going to knock like... well, like your video)

You need numbers, not guesses.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/23/16 2:14 p.m.

Where the clearance was too tight or too loose I listed the closest gauge I had that fit - they're 0.02 to 0.03mm apart. So where I listed "too loose - fits 0.25mm" that means that 0.28mm didn't fit. Where I listed "too tight - 0.10mm fit" that means that's the biggest gauge I could fit in there.

I wasn't using plastigauge and a micrometer, I was using a feeler gauge set.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/23/16 4:17 p.m.

Turned the engine by hand with the plugs out, the force required wasn't totally consistent (should it be?) but there was no major resistance.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/23/16 4:36 p.m.

You are still compressing the valve springs at different times, so it will not be totally consistent.

I would get all valves in spec now and maybe give it another start. But the sound on the last video is not good.

GameboyRMH wrote: Turned the engine by hand with the plugs out, the force required wasn't totally consistent (should it be?) but there was no major resistance.
dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/24/16 8:51 a.m.

Listened to that vid. Definitely an oiling issue. Open the bottom end up and inspect but I am betting it will have to come apart.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
4/24/16 7:07 p.m.

I'd stop running it now...pull the pan, and check the bottom end

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/29/16 8:24 a.m.

Did a little more on the engine yesterday evening. It's like watching Lost, I always end up with more questions than answers.

I drained out the oil and let the stream run over a big neodymium hard drive magnet...no particles. Ran the magnet around the bottom of the drain pan and then funneled the old oil into a bottle, letting it run over the magnet again...still no particles.

I took the filter off and oddly, no oil spilled out. The engine hadn't been run since I recorded the last video and it was parked on a slight backward incline, but I'd think there should still be some oil in it. I'll cut it apart tonight.

I did another sound comparison with the last video, using the tach reading seen at the end. Again the sound matches cam speed.

In a couple weeks I'll have a set of ARP rod bolts. Looks like I'll have to reuse the head bolts.

Also I'm thinking that if I need a new oil pump I should use a silvertop pump this time, didn't know that was an option. And I'll give the valve a 2-3mm shim to compensate for the pressure drop that the oil cooler system will cause.

I'll try to pull the pan off on Saturday, looks like it'll be a very tight fit to remove the pan with the engine and exhaust in place.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 11:33 a.m.

Haven't had much success this weekend. The pan can't come off without removing the exhaust at the very least, which means removing the subframe brace, so the car would have to be jacked up for that, and it can't be jacked up where it is...so that was a bust.

Next I tried cutting the filter open. In this video a guy uses the exact same model tin snips I have to easily cut a filter open like a soda can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXYN5ZN9S8

My filter is apparently built like a nuclear-bomb-proof E36 M3house. I couldn't get anywhere with the tin snips at first, but after piercing the side with a big can opener I was finally able to start cutting. There actually was oil in the filter, a lot of it. I guess it had a good anti-drainback valve:

More than a solid hour of work later:

The inside actually looks much more shiny in the pic than it does in real life. It's just oily papery stuff in there, I can't see any metal particles, hear any rattling around or draw any out of the filter with a magnet.

I was able to draw a few metal particles out of the oil that drained out of the filter with a magnet. This is almost all of it:

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
5/1/16 11:50 a.m.

Did you check the valve clearances?

That's not enough metal to worry about.

My favorite way to open an oil filter is to punch a hole in it with a chisel, then use an air shear and buzz around the bottom.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 11:56 a.m.

Nothing you posted changes what i am thinking. It has to come apart.

The sound in the vid is the valve train making noise due to no / low oil. Don't get fixated on this. You have an oiling issue. You need to find it. Also at this point the rest of the motor probibly should be inspected.

I just had a thought. plug a new cheepo oil filter on it. Yes like a fram or somthing. I am wondering if the one you have is blocking the oil flow. Probibly not but worth checking. You never know.

Also and this is just me being a bit foggy since again it has been a while since i worked on one of these but is there an oil pressure relief valve on these? If so I wool look at that as well.

As I said in a previous post low oil pressure results I wrist pin failure first. These start to lock up and force tge pistons in to tge cylinder walls at bad angles. This is probibly part of the noise you are hearing. And since it is a four cycle these noises will B in sync with the cams.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 12:04 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: Did you check the valve clearances?

Yep, valve clearances weren't perfect, but not far enough out of spec to cause noise or indicate a bent valve. Measurements are on the 3rd post from the top of this page (where clearances were out of spec I listed the biggest gauge that would fit).

I have a Dremel that I could cut the filter with but I didn't want to use sawing tools that would send metal sawdust inside the filter and make it harder to tell what came from the engine. Even the tin snips produced quite a few metal splinters.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 12:20 p.m.
dean1484 wrote: Nothing you posted changes what i am thinking. It has to come apart. The sound in the vid is the valve train making noise due to no / low oil. Don't get fixated on this. You have an oiling issue. You need to find it. Also at this point the rest of the motor probibly should be inspected. I just had a thought. plug a new cheepo oil filter on it. Yes like a fram or somthing. I am wondering if the one you have is blocking the oil flow. Probibly not but worth checking. You never know. Also and this is just me being a bit foggy since again it has been a while since i worked on one of these but is there an oil pressure relief valve on these? If so I wool look at that as well.

I know there's no hope for avoiding complete disassembly now, I want to get that done but the engine builder's taking his sweet time on that. I heard yesterday that he thinks I should just buy another engine to drop in he must be confusing me with his Italian-sportbike-owning customers 'cuz that's not an option for me...

The Toyota-brand filter has a bypass valve in it to let oil through if too much pressure builds up inside the filter, I don't know if this filter had one, I could tear it open in a more destructive way to find out. I could try to start up with a cheap filter and some cheap oil and see what happens if there isn't a bypass valve.

In addition to the bypass valve inside the filter there's a relief valve on the oil pump that controls maximum oil pressure.

dean1484 wrote: As I said in a previous post low oil pressure results I wrist pin failure first. These start to lock up and force tge pistons in to tge cylinder walls at bad angles. This is probibly part of the noise you are hearing. And since it is a four cycle these noises will B in sync with the cams.

That makes sense, and it's such a terrible possibility that it's very likely what happened

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 12:39 p.m.

This filter does have a bypass valve:

fasted58
fasted58 UltimaDork
5/1/16 12:41 p.m.

I start a hole in the filter base w/ hammer and screwdriver, tin snip around the filter flange base and pull the 'tin cup' off whole. Hacksaw the pleats top and bottom out of their nest then pull the pleats apart spread out accordian like to read. Not really too much dismantling debris to cloud the reading of the inner pleats this way.

codrus
codrus GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/1/16 1:09 p.m.

If you're cutting a lot of oil filters open you want one of these:

atm92484
atm92484 Reader
5/1/16 2:23 p.m.

^this

You'd be amazed at how much pain results from a jagged piece of oil soaked sheet metal tearing into your hand. You can also be certain that you aren't contaminating the filter with pieces of the metal you're cutting away.

You need to get the element out of the filter and spread out on a table. I've had many that looked okay at first glance and were filled with bearing material deep down in the pleats. Also bearing material isn't magnetic so your magnet trick won't work.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 2:53 p.m.

Yah, need to cut around the base, lift out the element, use a knife to cut the element off of the ends, then open it up/lift it off and spread it open to have a look.

For instance:

We do this all the time at work when we suspect engine problems. Spin the filter off, cut it open, have a look at what has been going through the oil. Filters are cheap, it doesn't take more than 5-10 minutes to cut it open and have a look. This one was a Subaru that had a light knock. Removed engine and disassembled when we found the filter full of debris, culprit was the #1 rod bearing. Very fortunately it was caught early enough that the crank was not damaged, so all it needed was new rod bearings and reassembly.

One of these days I do want to get a filter cutter.

Also? This is why cartridge filters rule. I don't understand why people swap them for spin on filters when possible, I'd want to go the other way.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/1/16 4:25 p.m.

Knurled's post inspired me to put on Eye of the Tiger and find a way to take this thing apart. Turned out the key was to cut a line to the top and cut around the top first, which then let me remove the side in big pieces, and then the filter just fell out. Here it is just as I started cutting the material away from the ends:

Shaky pic of the whole thing once the material was cut out:

The worst debris I could find was a few tiny "sparkles" like these:

chiodos
chiodos Dork
5/1/16 4:44 p.m.

Thats her, put a magnet too it and see if they are ferrous or not.

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
5/1/16 5:02 p.m.

Magnet won't find rod or main bearing material.

chiodos
chiodos Dork
5/1/16 5:29 p.m.

In reply to iceracer:

That was my point. If it doesnt pick up the sparkley bits its bearing or aluminum

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