I'm about to do something I wasn't (TDI content)

I'm 95% sure I'm about to trade the WRX in on a TDI Sportwagen.

Yes, I'm the guy who whines about the high pressure fuel pump issue every time TDIs come up. Two friends have them, and apparently about 99.5% don't fail, at least in the first couple of years.

A few of the facts:

• The other half of the household LOVES the TDI (and she's the main reason we keep a new car at all).
• A Leaf would make sense for a lot of our stuff, but would require another car, and we're out of parking. Renting for trips is logical, but I hate the idea of dealing with it anytime we visit my folks 120 miles away etc etc...
• A Volt or other plug-in hybrid is appealing, but I still have misgivings about leasing, and I feel this is probably a bad time to purchase something whose resale depends on no big advances in EV tech. (The lease misgivings apply to the Leaf as well, but I'll hear refutations in either case)
• 90% of our driving is around town, but again, we don't have room for separate town and trip cars.
• For my own driving, I'm mostly looking forward to getting the 2002 running. The TDI's a lot cooler than a lot of things we could have, though I find some appeal in all the cars mentioned so far; I can geek out on efficiency, especially once the 2002's running

In summary, the TDI feels like a moderately serious VW quality gamble, but one that most people get away with. It would suck if it failed and VW wouldn't warranty it, but it wouldn't ruin us. And it's the car she wants most, which is worth a lot.

Moreover, once it's paid off, if it's looking solid and the parking situation's improved, there could/should be some interesting options on the EV front for around town stuff. That is, it seems to me if we are going to do the very sensible EV for around town stuff with two cars, it makes sense to start with the one that can do both roles and then add the one-role specialist later, rather than the other way around.

Thanks for listening to me babble. Any and all insights appreciated.

ransom wrote: A few of the facts: * The other half of the household LOVES the TDI (and she's the main reason we keep a new car at all).... (blah blah blah) And it's the car she wants most, which is worth a lot. (blah blah blah) Thanks for listening to me babble. Any and all insights appreciated.

Those are the most important lines I read.

In reply to xflowgolf:

Well spotted

I've said it before... buying a VW is a dice roll, although it seems the odds have improved over the last few years. Also, it seems dealer service techs are a little better with TDIs than they were back in 2003 when the TDiClub recommendation was to avoid dealer service at all costs.

Regardless, I'm closing in on 324K miles over the past 10 years (purchased new in 5/03) and I've done little to the car other than maintenance. The years and miles have taken its toll and I desperately need to geet the car of the road for some overdue service (see: my ITR thread), but it doesn't need anything I'd consider excessive for the car's age and mileage (new clutch, turbo, injectors, etc). Even in its poorly state, it still reliably gets me to work every day.

Love my wife's Audi A4 wagon. 2.0L TDI, automatic. We've owned it for 2-years (it's an 06 model) and it gets over 45mpg easy.

On September first we drove it, loaded down and topped with a roof box to Istanbul and back. It was 4300Km and it took us two weeks. Along the way we found mountains, unimproved roads, autobahns, dirt roads, cobblestones, Albanian roads, Turkish 90mph traffic, the "Transfagarasan Highway", ect. For the entire trip we averaged 32MPG, and that includes a 3-hour jog across Hungary at 150KPH (roughly 90MPH) on our last night. The damned car took it like a champ. I was so impressed I briefly humored the idea of getting one for myself (but nah). One thing I will say though, is there is a slight "press the gas" delay that I don't like but have gotten used to.

We did have an EGR issue a year ago. I think the valve failed "open"? Easy replacement.

Good times man, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

ransom wrote: 1. The other half of the household LOVES the TDI (and she's the main reason we keep a new car at all). 2. A Leaf would make sense for a lot of our stuff, but would require another car, and we're out of parking. Renting for trips is logical, but I hate the idea of dealing with it anytime we visit my folks 120 miles away etc etc... 3. A Volt or other plug-in hybrid is appealing, but I still have misgivings about leasing, and I feel this is probably a bad time to purchase something whose resale depends on no big advances in EV tech. (The lease misgivings apply to the Leaf as well, but I'll hear refutations in either case) 4. 90% of our driving is around town, but again, we don't have room for separate town and trip cars.

1. Does she love the TDI, or does she love the VW Sportwagen? I don't see the appeal of the TDI engine with more fuel efficient powertrains available. For example, the Jetta Hybrid gets significantly better fuel economy than the Jetta TDI even though it has more power. Since most of your driving is in the city, the hybrid would get drastically better mileage than the TDI would in practical usage. So, if she loves the Sportwagen, that's drastically different from loving the TDI (one is a chassis, one is an engine!).

2. You live in one of the best places in the nation for EV infrastructure. I have taken my Leaf on 350 mile weekend trips multiple times (Detroit Lake with scenic tours, Lincoln City with scenic tours). With a Leaf that has the fast charger, you can cover 120 miles from Portland any time of the year with only one 20 minute stop mid-trip. Since this is not typical usage, the 20 minute stop on rare occassions seems like a drop in the bucket, especially since you'd save way more time per year by not having to stop for gas during your normal daily commutes anymore. Don't take my word for it, go to plugshare.com and look at how many public chargers there are, then look at just how many high power (DC) chargers there are around us.

3. Misgivings about leasing? Not really sure what that means, but it's clear that on many EVs and plug-in hybrids, the lease prices are extremely aggressive, as the OEMs are trying to pump up the volumes on these cars and recognize that people are concerned about new technology and the best way to get them past that fear is with less risk ($$$). I never understood leasing in the past (for typical families), but with the prices offered on leases for some of these EV/PHEV/EREV vehicles it's clearly a huge money savings. With the lease price making a very clear financial benefit in terms of cost of ownership, I don't understand what other misgivings you have.

4. You are describing the perfect use case for an EV, IMO. The vast majority of your driving is in town. You occassionally leave town, but still well within range of a very good EV charging infrastructure. You very rarely leave EV charging infrastructure, and understand that in those very rare cases there are easily available alternatives (like renting a car or taking a plane, train, etc.).

If she just wants the Sportwagen, it sounds like your fates are sealed. If she wants some good usable hatchback space with good fuel economy, I don't understand the TDI unless she likes the smell of diesel on her hands or some other strange diesel attraction. Personally, I'd be looking at Leaf, C-Max (hybrid or EREV), Prius (many options in size and plug in or not), Insight, CRZ, Spark EV, Fit EV, Volt, etc.

I'm curious since you're a great case for having an EV but you still don't believe it would work for you...have you actually driven one? If you rent one equipped with DC fast charging for a day (Enterprise, Getaround, etc.) and use a couple of different charger types, I can't imagine you wouldn't believe it could work for you. Asses in seats is the best way to make EV believers out of people, and you seem like a level headed guy that would take well to an ass-in-seat experience.

Bryce

I berkeleying hate what this forum does with lists. Just putting that out there. Not even going to bother making it appear right...

The jetta sportwagen is an interesting case since you can get both diesel and hybrid (but not diesel hybrid..damn) powertrains in the same car.

For me, that would come down to which one you like driving more long term. Im as big a fan as anyone of hybrids but there is an extremely steep learning curve for upgrading powertrain performance if that is an issue to you. So you may like the hybrid more in the short term but find it nearly impossible to add speed to if it bores you in the future. That's not true of the TDI.

TDIs can be upgraded fairly easily and while it is hard to make them FAST, it is pretty easy to make them highly entertaining. My .02.

Thanks for the very well-reasoned reply!

It's the Sportwagen she likes in terms of pleasant-to-drive and to sit in, though the TDI engine is important for its efficiency over the gas version. Its strong suit is highway, but around town it still blows the WRX out of the water (bar's set awfully low there).

Regarding infrastructure we're half-blessed and half-screwed: Most common trips are to Eugene (great coverage), hopefully more frequent trips to Mt Hood (just went with a friend whose friend had it worked out with his Leaf with one stop each way; breakfast up, lunch or dinner down), and Kennewick (last EV charging point is in The Dalles, then it's 130 miles to Kennewick with no charging stations , and that trip would be at least two charging stops if they were well-located and existed).

Astoria would have to be by way of Longview, WA, and Lincoln City would require a stop in McMinnville. For these trips we'd have the dog, and that makes stopping for lunch at a restaurant problematic... On a nice day we can sit outside or stretch our legs. The other half of the year...

I can't quantify the desire to have a car on hand that would allow a trip of arbitrary length without renting, etc... I suppose that's something we could get used to, but the idea makes me uneasy. If not completely out of range, we'd probably be taking one trip that required working around EV range monthly.

I suppose I should go drive a Volt and a Leaf, and possibly a C-Max and a Prius. The last Prius I drove I didn't care for, but that was an earlier model; not sure how much they've changed. I find the Volt the most compelling of the hybrids, but the plug-in versions of the C-Max or Prius would also probably do many of our errands on almost entirely electricity.

Wish I knew where EV tech and infrastructure would be in three years... Ah, and of course every butt in a seat affects that...

In reply to Vigo:

I don't see a Jetta wagon hybrid on VW's site; are you sure that's not sedan-only?

EDIT: I'm a little curious about the TDI's hop-up potential, but it's not a big deal, and not something I'd consider 'til it was out of warranty. What we've established with the WRX is that while I do want to not hate our DD, my idea of fun is really more the stuff I build...

Just saw the plugshare link Nashco posted over in another EV thread.

That's a lot more coverage than the gov't site I was looking at. That said, I'd be a little concerned about relying on a dryer outlet on "unnamed rd" in Crow Butte State Park to get from Kennewick to The Dalles or vice versa...

I'm about 45 days and 2400 miles into ownership of a 2013 TDI Sportwagen (DSG).

I am getting 42-46 mpg, depending upon how much city vs. highway. As far as I can tell, you can't get less than 40 mpg no matter how you drive it.

You know how they say it is more fun to drive a slow car fast? The JSW is reasonably fun to drive and has enough torque to squirt through traffic (with minimal turbo lag).

Fit and finish are excellent (thanks Pedro!)

My initial impressions are very good, and this is from someone who was sorely disappointed with our last new car purchase (at nearly twice the price).

As I understand it, production of the current model has ended and the factory is being retooled for what will be the 2015 model.

Certain color/option combinations are scarce on the ground already.

There will be a small number of 2014 models - you gain a backup camera and lose 12 months/12,000 miles of free maintenance.

In other words, get one while you can.

I've been looking into TDI's as a potential replacement for my Mazda 3 when the time comes, even though my prior history with VW's has told me to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction. The lure of reliable long term service and obscenely awesome fuel mileage and range keeps them in mind. I have a friend who loves diesel vehicles, and his daily driver is a unicorn-esque 1996 VW Passat TDI manual wagon. We were talking about the newer 09-up 2.0L TDI's recently.

He was telling me that he takes his TDI to a local independent mechanic that specializes in TDI service (he used to be a VW tech and opened his own shop). They were discussing the topic of the 2009-up cars, and the mechanic said he owns a 2012 Passat TDI sedan. He has not had any issues with it yet. He says that he's seen the HPFP issues a few times, but every time he tests the fuel and finds that there is gasoline mixed in with the diesel. Whether it's from owner error, leaky underground tanks, or delivery driver error, it's the same deal every time. Other than that, he reports that the cars are awesome. He was saying that in the Passat, he recently took a road trip with three friends and they managed to knock down 52mpg average, and they weren't trying. That's 4 adult dudes, all their crap, and 52mpg average. WOW.

What keeps me away mainly is that I don't want to deal with a $1200 timing belt service every 80k or so. My 2012 3 is about to hit 50k miles this week, and the car has a timing chain, not to mention it's really cheap to maintain and easy to wrench on. My last and only VW (2002 Jetta 2.0 8v) was neither one of those things.

If your significant other wants it, get it. Make her happy. If she hates it, they have amazing resale value.

I also linked to plugshare in this thread if you read what I said above. All of those drives you mentioned EXCEPT Kennewick are easy with the Leaf and fast chargers. The charging stops are very short, so the issues about the dog and the rain and blablabla you'll adapt to quickly, and it's not often you need to worry about it. Plugshare also doesn't show "in progress" chargers, such as Government Camp, which comes online before this winter. I also don't know what the EV infrastructure will be like in three years, but I know with absolute certainty that it will not get smaller. Also, our local government has invested heavily in EV infrastructure (instead of purchase incentives, like other states) and I intend to use that infrastructure I've paid for! If you're interested in OR "in progress" EV infrastructure, here's more info:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/OIPP/Pages/inn_ev-charging.aspx

If range anxiety is an issue for you, then the plug in hybrids are the obvious solution. I can tell you that after a while, you'll start wishing you could drive further without the engine starting, but it's a great solution if you want range, a single vehicle, and really good fuel economy. As you said, sounds like you need to step away from the keyboard and do some actual driving for your brand-new-vehicle purchase.

Bryce

Oh yeah, and a non-EV-pushing comment. Keep in mind the city MPG multiplied by fuel PRICE when comparing options. Even a regular gas car that gets decent fuel economy competes with a TDI when making short drives in the city. Diesels don't get great MPG when they're cold (short drives) because they don't make enough waste heat to warm up and get into an efficient operating mode...their efficiency actually hurts the MPG for short drives. Also, diesel costs more than regular gas, which also doesn't help.

I work in trucking, and I know diesels are great for putting miles on in the highway (or even stop and go driving if they're already warmed up), but for lots of short commutes in a city car it's a hard sell.

Bryce

In reply to Nashco:

Re: missing the plugshare link: <facepalm />

Re: diesel around town: hrm... I'm not too worried about the additional cost/gal of diesel; it's more efficiency than economy we're worried about, but the short-hops thing totally applies...

I've never noticed enough difference to care about when I was just paying for gas fill-ups, but I wonder whether a couple of bikes on the roof meaningfully reduces an EV's range...

One of the mass market car mags tested 4 flavors of the Jetta and got better MPG with the TDI than the Hybrid.

SilverFleet wrote: What keeps me away mainly is that I don't want to deal with a $1200 timing belt service every 80k or so.

The timing belt interval is 100K on just about every TDI now (earlier cars had shorter intervals, but I doubt there are many left with their original belts at this point).

I don't think I spent $1200 on my first TB change and that included buying the tools to do it. The "deluxe" parts kit from idparts.com is well under $300. Can easily be done in a day by a DIY'er with moderate tools and experience and ability to follow instructions.

Ian F wrote:

SilverFleet wrote: What keeps me away mainly is that I don't want to deal with a $1200 timing belt service every 80k or so.

The timing belt interval is 100K on just about every TDI now (earlier cars had shorter intervals, but I doubt there are many left with their original belts at this point). I don't think I spent $1200 on my first TB change and that included buying the tools to do it. The "deluxe" parts kit from idparts.com is well under $300. Can easily be done in a day by a DIY'er with moderate tools and experience and ability to follow instructions.

Yeah, I know, but I'd rather have a chain if at all possible. You don't have to worry about it as much.

Also, I've been patiently waiting on the US-spec Mazda Skyactiv-D. It's still unclear if those have a belt or chain. Also, they keep pushing them back. Now they are saying they are coming out next spring.

I don't see a Jetta wagon hybrid on VW's site; are you sure that's not sedan-only?

No, im not sure. I think i'd rather have a TDI wagon than a hybrid sedan so that's quite a sticking point.. The wagon is the only jetta id even consider.

I'm a little curious about the TDI's hop-up potential, but it's not a big deal, and not something I'd consider 'til it was out of warranty. What we've established with the WRX is that while I do want to not hate our DD, my idea of fun is really more the stuff I build...

Good on ya, then. An honest appraisal of your needs and wants is the most we can hope for in trying to help you out on this, so that rings success even if it's lacking in tiresmoke.

ransom wrote: I've never noticed enough difference to care about when I was just paying for gas fill-ups, but I wonder whether a couple of bikes on the roof meaningfully reduces an EV's range...

Still looking for more excuses at the keyboard to ignore test driving an EV? Ha!

Just like a gas car, aerodynamics affect range. Expect a pair of bikes on top of your car to affect your MPG in a gas car by about 10% on the highway (ie. your 30 mpg car only gets 27 mpg with bikes up there). So, if your EV range was 80 miles for the conditions, expect you'll only get 72 miles with the same conditions and bikes up there. Obviously, this is EXTREMELY speed dependent since it's aerodynamics.

m4ff3w wrote: One of the mass market car mags tested 4 flavors of the Jetta and got better MPG with the TDI than the Hybrid.

Strangely, this defies the MPG numbers they've provided to our federal government. Safe to say it depends on the driving you're doing, the transmission you're using, who is doing the driving and how, and variability in MPG collection? The federal government testing is pretty durn precise, but obviously not representative of all real world drive cycles. If you drive the hybrid nicely in lots of short city drives, it will get double the fuel economy of the diesel. If you drive the same cars at 80 mph for 4 hours, you should expect the diesel won't fair as poorly. Was this mass market magazine doing testing in Michigan, with lots of high speed driving and very little dense urban areas? Because if they were, that might explain some of their results. Did this magazine document the method they used to measure the fuel economy of each vehicle so you understood the variability potential? I'm guessing not...magazines just don't want to spend the kind of time it takes to do fuel economy measurements accurately and consistently (99% of the time).

Bryce

SilverFleet wrote:

Ian F wrote:

SilverFleet wrote: What keeps me away mainly is that I don't want to deal with a $1200 timing belt service every 80k or so.

The timing belt interval is 100K on just about every TDI now (earlier cars had shorter intervals, but I doubt there are many left with their original belts at this point). I don't think I spent $1200 on my first TB change and that included buying the tools to do it. The "deluxe" parts kit from idparts.com is well under $300. Can easily be done in a day by a DIY'er with moderate tools and experience and ability to follow instructions.

Yeah, I know, but I'd rather have a chain if at all possible. You don't have to worry about it as much. Also, I've been patiently waiting on the US-spec Mazda Skyactiv-D. It's still unclear if those have a belt or chain. Also, they keep pushing them back. Now they are saying they are coming out next spring.

You should check the Grand-Am site, they have Mazda 6 Diesels racing, I would assume that the engine would be a similar configuration for the road.

Nashco wrote:

ransom wrote: I've never noticed enough difference to care about when I was just paying for gas fill-ups, but I wonder whether a couple of bikes on the roof meaningfully reduces an EV's range...

Still looking for more excuses at the keyboard to ignore test driving an EV? Ha!

I'll show you! I just went and drove a Leaf on my lunch break!

Nashco wrote: Just like a gas car, aerodynamics affect range. Expect a pair of bikes on top of your car to affect your MPG in a gas car by about 10% on the highway (ie. your 30 mpg car only gets 27 mpg with bikes up there). So, if your EV range was 80 miles for the conditions, expect you'll only get 72 miles with the same conditions and bikes up there. Obviously, this is EXTREMELY speed dependent since it's aerodynamics.

The big difference is that filling up a gas car 10% more often is effectively a cost increase, and a 10% ding on gas costs when I travel with bikes is trivial.

A 10% range hit on a car with an 80-mile range, however, is significant in terms of trip planning.

Not that this is a deal-breaker, just that it's a much bigger deal in terms of usefulness and convenience in my life.

On to the test drive: It was fine. City acceleration and handling: fine (pretty numb, but not as painful as the old 2000 Civic). Onramp: fine. Acceleration to freeway speed: totally acceptable, though I only did it in Eco mode by accident; I'll have to look up whether Eco mode would have made that considerably more aggressive all the way up to 65mph, or whether it's just throttle curve...

My only gripes were a seating position that kept my legs mostly off the seat (I didn't think to try for telescoping the wheel, which would have allowed me to slide the seat back a bit further without getting unduly upright; does it telescope, or just tilt?), and braking which seemed like it must have been turning regen on and off at creeping-up-to-stopped traffic levels of retardation. This I would either adapt to or it would drive me completely out of my mind. I actually had what bordered on a scary moment when I eased up on the brakes ever so slightly and the change in braking was pretty thoroughly out of line with the change in pedal pressure.

Mostly, driving it was a non-event. Which I'm trying to accept as fine for the household appliance. It was considerably less pleasant to drive in terms of "I like the way this car drives" than the TDI Sportwagen, but the TDI Sportwagen falls short of the WRX, so we're picking our best tradeoff along a continuum, not just picking the best-to-drive.

My salesguy was about as good as I could have hoped for, and I was still reminded why I hate going to dealerships. Score another one for purchase over lease, where I can go through my credit union's concierge service and just specify a car without ever setting foot in one. After pointing out that this trip was only to verify that four six-footers fit, that my dog would fit in back, and that it didn't absolutely suck to drive, it still took too long to point out that it wasn't time to fill out a credit application when I hadn't driven a Volt, and hadn't had the other half of the household come check it out. Suffice it to say that my lunch was longer than intended.

Bryce, what do you consider a comfortable "hop" on a freeway trip when planning multiple legs to charge? 50 miles? 60 miles? 75? Much worse doing 65 or so on I-5 or I-84 vs 55-60 on hwy99?

On the Leaf, Eco mode is only accelerator curve (100%=100% in all modes), heater/AC power, and regen mode. I always drive in E unless I want max heater or air conditioning.

The brake feel on the Leaf sucks at that transition from slowing down with regen to no regen and friction only (low speed). It is noticeable by a good driver, you will adapt quickly to learn that instant of brake release isn't going to go on forever (no need to panic). It only lasts an instant, most people don't even notice it. It does annoy me, no doubt about it. I'm excited to see how the Spark EV does with that, which is my next EV (already on order...want to buy a Think?).

Dealers are dealers. You'll have to accept that as part of getting to test drive a new car you don't own!

With four people, at 65, with the AC or heat on, you're only getting 60 miles between charges (about how far the DC chargers are spaced out, by design). With 1 person, at 45 mph, with great weather, you can go about 100 miles per charge. Those are the two bookends I always give people with the Leaf, between 60 and 100 miles depending on conditions. Speed is the biggest variable, followed by extreme weather (batteries don't like being hot/cold, heater and air conditioning affect range, compounding the problem). Weight is a factor, but not much. Adding bikes to the top is going to hurt as well.

Taking a test drive is the best thing you can do. Go try out a Volt, C-Max, Insight, and Prius and you'll have covered the heavy hitters. If you thought the Leaf was boring too own, I'd say you could probably skip the Prius and Insight, they're even worse (IMO). We got the Leaf as an appliance with an extremely low cost of ownership. Jessica liked the Volt more, but it was much more money. Since then the Volt prices have come down dramatically. The C-Max wasn't on the market when we got the Leaf and I haven't got to drive one yet, so I can't help there.

Bryce

I just noticed something major and obvious I'd missed on the plugshare route: None of the charging points between The Dalles and Kennewick will do a quick charge, so we'd have one 1/2-hour stop, and one four-hour stop...

Even Kennewick doesn't have a quick charge station, but presumably we wouldn't be in a hurry to charge and could use her sister's power for overnight...

Aggravating; one quick charge station installation in the next few months could make one of our major destinations tenable, but it's a question mark for now...

Oh well, no point worrying unnecessarily without having driven a Volt etc...