I'm about to do something I wasn't (TDI content)

Like I said above, you don't want to go to Kennewick with an EV right now unless you're feeling adventurous and want to charge at RV parks (at 6.6 kW). I'm also not aware of any fast charge stations going in east of The Dalles at this point. I completely agree, a few more chargers would make that drive doable...but that won't happen until there are more EVs, as that's a low traffic route. Chicken and egg.

How many times a year do you go to Kennewick? I don't need to know, just the stuff you have to ask yourself. I only drive to Idaho to visit my family about once a year. I could easily take a train to visit them if I didn't have a gas car. I could also take a rental car if I had a schedule to keep. I could also have a plug in hybrid that would be an EV for my daily drive, but still be able to drive to Kennewick. Etc. It's great having options!

Bryce

In reply to ransom:

FYI - The C-Max is incredibly compromised. It has a very high load floor in the rear (where the batteries are) which will make it problematic with the dog. It also doesn't get nearly the mileage/range of it's competitors.

Go test drive a Leaf, a Volt, and the TDI on the same day. I'd personally skip the Prii totally, unless you can find a Plug-In Hybrid one.

Just to be clear, there are two versions of the C-Max, one is a normal hybrid (functions like a normal Prius). The C-Max Energi is the plug-in hybrid, which has a much larger battery that eats into the interior space.

Bryce

In reply to Nashco:

I apparently flunk reading comprehension today...

Yep; definitely trying to recalibrate in terms of what conveniences are actually worthwhile. I'm accustomed to having a car which I can drive across town or across the country without advance planning. The latter doesn't happen often enough to make it mandatory; it's hard to put a price (not just monetary, but in The Big Picture) on that convenience and whether it ought to matter.

In a world with less '63 Ranchero in my driveway, I might see this as an opportunity to build the Volvo or BMW wagon I'd want for a road trip car. I'm at least one major project from freeing up space enough to do that. Who knows, maybe the thing is to do the Leaf and if I get annoyed with renting and workarounds, pick up a wagon when the Ranchero goes... Parking should be slightly less awful in another couple of months when I can get one into the garage...

In reply to Javelin:

Thanks for the input; I'm still sort of curious about the C-Max. I gather it drives less boringly than a Prius, at least according to some. Maybe that offsets some of the other compromises?

If we don't do the TDI, I lean strongly toward doing a plug-in of some type (hybrid or straight EV). I think I'd probably just take the TDI over a "normal" hybrid. If I'm going to drive something I like less, I want that mostly-city driving to be as close as possible to all electric.

I loathe the idea of doing a marathon test drive day, but once we have contenders picked out, that's probably the thing to do.

I'm still sort of curious about the C-Max. I gather it drives less boringly than a Prius, at least according to some. Maybe that offsets some of the other compromises?

Well, it accelerates more strongly than a Prius. The same can be said of a Volt. I also think it has more conventional (more attractive to many) interior design. The last time i checked one out i suspected the dashboard was lifted directly out of the Escape, so it's definitely not trying to differentiate itself as much with interior design as the Prius. Some people resent that in the Prius, YMMV. I have heard it handles 'better' than the Prius too, but i have no experience there, i havent actually driven one.

If we don't do the TDI, I lean strongly toward doing a plug-in of some type (hybrid or straight EV). I think I'd probably just take the TDI over a "normal" hybrid. If I'm going to drive something I like less, I want that mostly-city driving to be as close as possible to all electric.

Well, not all hybrids behave alike. Some can operate all-electric more of the time than others.

Vigo wrote:

If we don't do the TDI, I lean strongly toward doing a plug-in of some type (hybrid or straight EV). I think I'd probably just take the TDI over a "normal" hybrid. If I'm going to drive something I like less, I want that mostly-city driving to be as close as possible to all electric.

Well, not all hybrids behave alike. Some can operate all-electric more of the time than others.

Fundamentally, I like that the plug-in types are capable of carrying enough energy from my home outlet with them to do a fair amount of around-town errands without any further energy input. At 11 miles, the C-Max is pushing it, but fundamentally I can pop down to the grocery store and even make another stop or two, which is what a lot of my driving entails, without firing up the engine.

And that's the distinction that makes it for me.

A hybrid which uses it's engine more in normal driving may well still trump the TDI in terms of efficiency, but I think this is one of those ineffable items which will sway me; if I'm going to take the aspects I'm less fond of, I want a car which is effectively an EV for my around-town use, even if it carries an engine around and has to use it when I go further.

I'm not 100% certain I've understood the gist of your observation, so please pardon me if I've babbled off in a different direction...

Nashco wrote: Just like a gas car, aerodynamics affect range. Expect a pair of bikes on top of your car to affect your MPG in a gas car by about 10% on the highway (ie. your 30 mpg car only gets 27 mpg with bikes up there). So, if your EV range was 80 miles for the conditions, expect you'll only get 72 miles with the same conditions and bikes up there. Obviously, this is EXTREMELY speed dependent since it's aerodynamics.

is that 10% figure standard/accurate ? with my Integra to and from Daytona last yr with a bike rack on the back .... it knocked me down from typical 35mpg to ~ 25mpg

Ha! It's just a rough number. Obviously it's hugely variable on the car, bikes, rack, speeds, etc. As they say, YMMV!

Personally, I never put stuff on top of my car. We even bring our Christmas trees home INSIDE the car.

Bryce

wbjones wrote:

Nashco wrote: Just like a gas car, aerodynamics affect range. Expect a pair of bikes on top of your car to affect your MPG in a gas car by about 10% on the highway (ie. your 30 mpg car only gets 27 mpg with bikes up there). So, if your EV range was 80 miles for the conditions, expect you'll only get 72 miles with the same conditions and bikes up there. Obviously, this is EXTREMELY speed dependent since it's aerodynamics.

is that 10% figure standard/accurate ? with my Integra to and from Daytona last yr with a bike rack on the back .... it knocked me down from typical 35mpg to ~ 25mpg

I rarely have a tank with bikes on the roof long enough to measure MPG hit, but it happened about a month ago. The auto Saturn DD usually gets around 34mpg highway. I took it from Winston out to Fontana/Tsali and back and averaged 31mpg with 2 bikes on the roof. 10% sounds pretty accurate. You can definitely feel the drag at higher speeds.

Nashco wrote: Ha! It's just a rough number. Obviously it's hugely variable on the car, bikes, rack, speeds, etc. As they say, YMMV! Personally, I never put stuff on top of my car. We even bring our Christmas trees home INSIDE the car. Bryce

this was strapped to the back of the car ... I imagine that on top would be even worse

The worst MPG I ever got with my TDI wagon was 38 mpg, 2 weeks after I bought it in 2003. Two DH bikes (larger and even less aero than normal bikes) on the roof; one passenger; packed to the headliner with gear; "enthusiastic" driving through the mtns of WV on the way to Snowshoe resort (at a 4500' elevation). The return trip was in the mid-40's.

The torque is great. Malone stage 1.5 makes it even better especially with the 6 speed. VW has been covering most of the HPFP's outside of warranty anyway in the US. See member 2Micron's solution to a HPFP failure on tdiclub.com and barring any recall from VW, that will be a great purchase when you hit 60k miles.

If that wasn't enough, I once drove from Acworth, GA to Keokuk, Iowa in one day one 1 tank. That trip I went GA to MN round trip for $157.

Every fill up I have ever done in the car: My Fuelly account Best tank was 54.7 mpg, worst was like 38 (tail of the dragon)

Is this really even a discussion?

For Leaf reference...

In reply to crankwalk and Ian F:

I see from crankwalk's Fuelly profile that's about 65% highway. It would probably seem like an outlier, but ever notice what you get on a tank that's primarily city driving?

It is interesting that Ian's worst-ever tank was highway driving, even if it was heavily laden, bike-topped, enthusiastic, and mountainous... Does that mean that's as bad as it gets, or does your location just preclude all-city driving?

There's no way Fuelly can work out city mileage from mixed tanks, but it'd be nice to be able to filter on mileage from fill-ups which were, say, > 80% city... A lot of ours are going to be 90% plus, with even the highway miles being short hops to suburban errands.

I'm 26K miles in on my golf tdi, no issues so far. I love it.

ransom wrote: In reply to crankwalk and Ian F: I see from crankwalk's Fuelly profile that's about 65% highway. It would probably seem like an outlier, but ever notice what you get on a tank that's primarily city driving? It is interesting that Ian's worst-ever tank was highway driving, even if it was heavily laden, bike-topped, enthusiastic, and mountainous... Does that mean that's as bad as it gets, or does your location just preclude all-city driving? There's no way Fuelly can work out city mileage from mixed tanks, but it'd be nice to be able to filter on mileage from fill-ups which were, say, > 80% city... A lot of ours are going to be 90% plus, with even the highway miles being short hops to suburban errands.

I'm never really over 50% city as you can see but most people on tdiclub that are heavy city are in the low 30s average. The 6 speed turns lower rpms than the DSG cars so overall my number is averaging 10 mpg more than the EPA estimate for combined driving. I can appreciate that.

a TDI Golf is very high on my "look at list" for next spring ... the $1000 cost of the DSG is still something that I'm thinking about ... if it gets worse milage than the 6sp ... guess it's a 6sp for me

If you're going to show the sexy version of the VW, you should at least give the Leaf a fighting chance...

pinchvalve wrote:

I can't defend the horrible front end, but aside from those horrible headlights, I personally don't mind the styling. Sure, it's bland, but it's no Mazda 3 or Hyundai Veloster (ugh...). The VW is definitely a better looking car, but it costs about $8k more than the Leaf (your tax dollars hard at work) so it damn well ought to be!

Bryce

ransom wrote: It is interesting that Ian's worst-ever tank was highway driving, even if it was heavily laden, bike-topped, enthusiastic, and mountainous... Does that mean that's as bad as it gets, or does your location just preclude all-city driving?

No... all hwy it most definitely was not. Switchback climbing through mountain roads getting to a ski resort in the Middle of Nowhere, WV. Probably an hour or so of 3rd and 4th gear driving.

In reply to Ian F:

Huh, interesting... I have absolutely no idea how that ought to compare on the continuum between city driving and actual freeway driving at steady cruise in high gear...

Today, I drove a Volt.

I liked most things about it better than the Leaf, though the steering was possibly even more numb. The brakes felt considerably better, and it had, I think, a bit more scoot (though I think I also put my foot in the Volt a bit earlier and more often than the Leaf). The outward visibility was pretty crappy.

I also found that the dog would probably be just fine back there, assuaging one of my fears. When I first looked it it closely in person from the outside, I thought "People are putting their dogs in there? That might as well be a sedan trunk!" But it turns out the vertical part is partly glass, though it looks opaque from outside on a rainy day...

BUT (and it's a big but), it fails the sit-behind-myself test. Through some fluke of mathematical averages, a LOT of my friends and family are around six feet tall. Quite a few are taller. With the driver's seat set for me, it was not only really cramped back there, it was quite difficult just to get my left foot in through the sliver of space between the front and back seats and threaded under the driver's seat. There's also no uncomfortable-but-workable-in-a-pinch 5th person. It's four buckets and two consoles. Period.

I like the way the Volt looks, I don't hate the way it drives, I like that it's an EV that will take all over town running on electricity, and as far as there are gas stations with the generator running, it has good cargo area... But two years ago, when we originally started looking for a new car, having a four door we could comfortably put our friends in was a major motivating factor. The Volt fails to tick that fundamental box. To my chagrin, it's out.

So... the nice lady from the credit union auto service is working up offers on leasing a mid-tier Leaf and buying a TDI Sportwagen. This Saturday we'll go and introduce my girlfriend to the Leaf and we'll both go revisit the TDI.

If we weren't already the jerks on the street taking up our own curb, our neighbors' curb, and spilling over the imaginary duct tape stripe down our shared driveway, I'd be more excited about the Leaf-plus-used-wagon plan. Wish I thought the Ranchero was only going to take me a couple of months (once I finish the garage), as that'll free up a parking spot... Oo, I guess I do get to wheel one into the garage here pretty soon...

And that's today's installment of Ransom's incredibly-slow-moving next car saga.

Most VW people, around where I live in Las Vegas and in the military, are the HUGEST asshats. If you can deal with that then buy one I don't see anything wrong with the cars and I keep reading that reliability has gone up from the past by quite a bit.

One thing is that i've never heard anyone i've actually met that hasn't had issues with their VW and most of the people who claim they had no problems had problems but think (or lie?) they weren't problems. This guy I used to work with kept telling me his MK4 VR6 was reliable yet it was in the shop all the damn time or he was working on it. Meanwhile my WRX with 40k miles really did have literally 0 problems, as in I never had to work on it other than to 'mod' it or change the oil and never had to get a warranty repair or other repair work done.

IDK why i've always had bad luck with VW people. Probably because the ones here are all bro air ride 'sick system bro' dubstep loud as berkeley waking up entire apartment complexes 10k HID tailgating you blinding your eyes with brights on at 12AM types. As far as enthusiasts go (not bro-car guys that pretend to be car guys) i never had issues with any other group and people like to talk E36 M3 about Porsche fans but my friend who does PCA events all the time i've gone with him and the people there are great.

In reply to kanaric:

Whatever we get, it's not to be part of any scene, so I'm not too concerned with who else buys them.

My WRX has been mostly solid for 16k miles, but I did have a wiring fault in a front turn signal, and I did have a taillight unit replaced under warranty when it took on rainwater and turned into a fishbowl...

For the VAST majority of us TDI people, we aren't in the hellaflush stance scene. Most TDI people are straight up nerds and I'm ok with that.