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Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
6/2/10 3:47 p.m.
sachilles wrote: Based on that. Wouldn't it be doubly dangerous for a race car driver to be strapped in with a 5 point and wearing a helmet that adds mass to the equation?(head and neck restraint being absent) I realize many sanctioning bodies have started to require H&N restraints, but not all do.

It is very dangerous - maybe double or more depending on the impact "type". I think you will see them as mandatory for all open track and racing eventually - and I'm not sure I agree with that but the tracks will be forced to in order to satisfy insurance.

96DXCivic
96DXCivic Dork
6/2/10 4:18 p.m.

I understand how a full cage would be dangerous. Smashing your unprotected head against a metal bar is not going to end well but why not something like a 4 point roll bar and a 6 point harness how in the world is that not safer?

wbjones
wbjones Dork
6/2/10 4:27 p.m.

keep in mind that most harness manufactures haven't had their product certified for highway use by whom ever does the certifying ... NTSB ?... if not certified then it's illegal to wear them in the place of OEM type anyway

HeavyDuty
HeavyDuty Reader
6/2/10 5:15 p.m.

This argument comes up what - every 2 or 3 months. How much would it take to actually settle this once and for all with some testing? This is a serious question. Can't we get some magazines or TV shows to step up and get some crash dummies and some lab time? I know we are talking about great expense but to settle this once and for all I'd kick in a donation. I think there's some truth and some myth in both sides.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
6/2/10 5:18 p.m.

This argument, and this article, completely miss the absolutely most significant engineering issue, as is typical when people start debating cages/ airbags/ harnesses in street vs race vehicles.

The biggest issue for people in a wreck is not whacking their head on the roll bar.

Race cars are, from an engineering perspective, a COMPLETE OPPOSITE approach than street cars and, in fact, compromise many safety concepts because they are designed for performance.

If you are in a wreck in a street car, the seat belt (or harness) won't save your life. The seat belt is designed to restrain you long enough to let the rest of the car save your life.

Your life will be spared because the energy will be absorbed in ways that are designed to direct those forces away from your mushy little body. Crumple zones, collapsible steering columns, drop away motor mounts designed to force the engine under the passenger compartment, stress points in chassis designed to absorb energy, side impact bars, fold under rear trunk areas and noses, impact absorbing bumpers, and a host of other generally passive engineering tricks all combine to absorb the energy otherwise destined to turn your brain into a bowl of Spaghetti-O's. The active restraints (seat belts, air bags, etc) are only supposed to keep you in place until the other parts of the car have done their job.

Street cars are designed to collapse, in a controlled manner.

Enter the racer. Let's face it, most of us are not engineers, and only know enough to get ourselves into trouble.

So, we figure out how to make a car go faster. But regardless of the type of racing you prefer, you will always come to the point where you realize making a car stiffer will generally make it faster.

So we build cages, but we include suspension pickups, effectively negating the crumple zones, both front and rear. Solid mounts will gain us a bit of torque to the wheels, but we will loose the drop away engine mounts. Harder suspension will corner tighter, but will have a more difficult time keeping the rubber on the pavement. Collapsible steering columns are heavy, side impact bars are unnecessary weight, air bags are ridiculous in a racer, impact absorbing bumpers are too heavy so we gut them, etc. etc. etc.

Everything those brilliant engineers put into the street cars to keep people safe, we undo, redo, disable, or work around.

Racing is compromising all the safety engineering that went into the car in the first place, and we then have to add after market racing safety gear to protect ourselves from ourselves, now that we've taken apart all the safety design in our cars.

For this reason, race cars aren't designed to collapse in a controlled manner like street cars. We generally lack the engineering capability in our backyards to accomplish this. They are designed to be rigid, and maintain a rigid compartment for the protection of the occupant, unless you've got several million to pay engineers of equal caliper to the OEM engineers to design new energy absorbing safety systems.

These are conflicting engineering principles. They are fundamentally incompatible.

So, rather than the absurdly simplistic question, "Will I whack my head on the rollbar?", we should be looking at the entire system, and asking, "Where will the energy be absorbed when this vehicle hits a concrete wall now that I have disabled all those nice safety devices the factory worked so hard to give me in the first place?"

Then we'll have a safe vehicle, on or off the street.

madmallard
madmallard New Reader
6/2/10 6:15 p.m.
SVreX wrote: This argument, and this article, completely miss the absolutely most significant engineering issue... Race cars are, from an engineering perspective, a COMPLETE OPPOSITE approach than street cars and, in fact, compromise many .... Everything those brilliant engineers put into the street cars to keep people safe, we undo, redo, disable, or work around...

This. Thanks.

JoeyM
JoeyM HalfDork
6/2/10 6:54 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: The article implies that people have enough strength to move out of the way in a manner that a 3 point harness will let out- that is totally false- nobody is that strong.

Is this the passage you're thinking about:

Jack Baruth said: What happens in a street car? Well, the roof collapses. There’s some roll reinforcement in most factory cars, but it’s not what you get in a race car. When the roof collapses, it’s okay, because a three-point belt allows your head and torso to move forward, away from the collapsing roof. Unless, that is, your head and shoulders are locked in position by shoulder harnesses. What happens then? Simple. Your neck supports the force of a rolling automobile landing on the roof. Hope you have a strong neck. If you don’t, you are either dead or paralyzed.

If so, I don't think he's saying anything about physical strength. I think his point is this:

In a caged car with a harness * the roof is assumed to NEVER collapse * - you are fixed to the seat, and cannot move

In a civilian car with a three point * - the roof can collapse, and the B-pillar mount will move downward * - this puts slack in the belt and you are NOT fixed in place. Inertia MIGHT move your head and neck away from the collapsing roof.

In a track rat with a harness bar but no cage * the roof can collapse * you are fixed to the seat and there's no chance that your head and neck will be moved away from the collapsing roof. * the seatbelt

I think the idea is that in a caged car with harness, you are fixed to the seat, and you assume that the roof will never collapse. In a civilian car with a three-point,

JoeyM
JoeyM HalfDork
6/2/10 7:11 p.m.
HeavyDuty wrote: This argument comes up what - every 2 or 3 months. How much would it take to actually settle this once and for all with some testing? This is a serious question. Can't we get some magazines or TV shows to step up and get some crash dummies and some lab time? I know we are talking about great expense but to settle this once and for all I'd kick in a donation. I think there's some truth and some myth in both sides.

Yup. This is the Feb. thread on the topic, and this is the March one. I think we're all begging for someone to test this. What we need is the whole slow-motion-and-crash-test-dummies comparison of:

  • street car in stock form

  • street car with roll bar and no other safety gear

  • street car with roll bar, fixed seat, and no other safety gear

  • caged car with roll bar, fixed seat, window harness, and helmet

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
6/2/10 7:17 p.m.

SVreX-

-The bulk of crumple zones happen fore and aft of the suspension pickup points and are therefore unaffected by the typical cage.

-We put urethane in motor mounts, but if the mount is truly designed to push the motor under the car a little urethane isn't going to stop it. The submarining motor trans setup is more likely a function of sloped firewall/floorboard junctions and subframe attachment points on the bottom of the car,all of which is unaffected by a roll cage.

-Very few racers replace the steering column so the collapsing feature remains intact.

-Factory door bars are not removed unless your cage includes them.

-Rollover roof intrusion is horrible on factory designs, a cage dramatically improves that.

-Factory belts are designed to allow us to get in and out of a car easily and have some semblance of restraint and reasonable body deceleration in a sudden stoppage. They do little to nothing in any other situation and allow your torso to travel all over the cockpit banging into everything. A harness is waaay better in all of those situations.

-We remove the 5mph impact features built into the bumpers so a factory design does win there.

-We remove airbags, but a hans device, a harness, a neck collar, and a seat with headrest wings easily replace them.

I'm know lots of research goes into car safety, but most of the standard safety mechanisms used in race cars are well thought out and an improvement on factory compromises made for cost or convenience.

alfadriver
alfadriver Dork
6/2/10 7:43 p.m.
JoeyM wrote: In a civilian car with a three point * - the roof can collapse, and the B-pillar mount will move downward * - this puts slack in the belt and you are NOT fixed in place. Inertia MIGHT move your head and neck away from the collapsing roof.

Again, how in the world is slack safer? Inertia will carry your body INTO the top as it crushes, not away. Your body follows the rest of the mass of the car, not the ground that's pushing the roof toward your head- once you HIT the roof, yes, you'll move- but by then it's too late. IMHO slack is a LOT worse than less slack.

My point is that 5/6 point harnesses are not more dangerous than 3 point WRT a roll over.

If roof crushes, you are in bad shape either way. One way your body's momentum forces you into the crushing roof, the other the crushing roof meets your head. Both lose.

If the roof does not crush, at least the 5/6 point harness will limit how much your body will go up into the roof.

Anyway, living though a roll over can't be much fun....

JeepinMatt
JeepinMatt HalfDork
6/2/10 7:55 p.m.

Who exactly is this guy? I'm not calling BS exactly, I just want to know his credibility. The fact that he races cars doesn't mean anything to me, if that's his only credibility. Someone who studies car safety - or race car safety - would get my ear, but simply being a race car driver doesn't mean you're an expert on what happens to the body in a wreck. I'd love to hear more about this, from someone who can show some solid evidence, because as far as I know this is all a "hunch" or "by the eye."

As I've brought up many times, and never had answered, is how does this explain cars with cages in them from the factory? My Wrangler, the old Bronco, old 4 Runners, Defenders, Land Cruisers etc...

SVTF
SVTF New Reader
6/2/10 8:06 p.m.

I tested this already - I crashed Saturday in my Focus. Spun and went into the Armco wall - which did not budge. I have fixed racing seats, 6 pt harnesses, and 4 pt roll bar/cage. And of course a helmet! After braking, I prolly entered the turn at 60+, lost grip just after the apex, spun and hit the inside wall at the passenger side front wheel (backwards).

The Focus has a lot of crush zones - all designed for a head on, not side impact. The whole front of my car now points left. Frame is bent on both sides. Hit hard enough to bounce the back of the car into the barrier as well, just for fun.

Passenger and I walked away without as much as a sore muscle, even with 4# brain buckets on our heads.

All this to say I am convinced that street safety gear is a deadly compromise to allow easy movement like changing the radio - if you are on the track with nothing but street safety gear you are taking a much higher risk than if you had at least the gear I have in the Focus.

klipless
klipless Reader
6/3/10 8:11 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

Let me try to put this another way. Let's say you were going to be tackled by the biggest sumbich in the NFL. Would you rather be hit while standing up unconstrainted, or while having your legs locked in position. If it were me, I'd probably go with the first option, seeing how the second will probably break my back. The first is still going to hurt, but you absorb the blow better.

A 3pt works best in a head-on collision, and it does a pretty good job preventing you from flying out of a car in a roll over. But it also allows you body to roll with the punches like the first option above. A 4+pt won't let you do that as well.

Of course a severe enough wreck will be game over regardless, and the lightest of roll overs won't be a problem either way, but there's a grey area in between that I think having a 3pt would be the way to go in a non-caged street car.

sachilles
sachilles HalfDork
6/3/10 9:25 a.m.

Does this scream mythbuster episode or what?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
6/3/10 10:32 a.m.
SVreX wrote: ...many good things and finished with.... > These are conflicting engineering principles. They are fundamentally incompatible. So, rather than the absurdly simplistic question, "Will I whack my head on the rollbar?", we should be looking at the entire system, and asking, "Where will the energy be absorbed when this vehicle hits a concrete wall now that I have disabled all those nice safety devices the factory worked so hard to give me in the first place?"

This is why I am not a writer. I was attempting to make this point in several disjointed, flailing posts but... here it is.

Eloquently put and straight to the point.

jeffmx5
jeffmx5 Reader
6/3/10 11:44 a.m.

I've been trying to find this again since I saw this topic yesterday. I found this a while ago while doing some Google research.

http://www.schrothracing.com/sdocs/TechTactics.pdf

Specifically, pages 32+ discuss harnesses, rollovers and rollbars.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
6/4/10 6:25 a.m.
MrJoshua wrote: SVreX- -The bulk of crumple zones happen fore and aft of the suspension pickup points and are therefore unaffected by the typical cage. Can't agree with you on that one. Modern crumple zones utilize pretty much everything fore of the A pillar and aft of the B pillar -We put urethane in motor mounts, but if the mount is truly designed to push the motor under the car a little urethane isn't going to stop it. The submarining motor trans setup is more likely a function of sloped firewall/floorboard junctions and subframe attachment points on the bottom of the car,all of which is unaffected by a roll cage. You are correct, sometimes. There are an awful lot of racers with relocated motors which would not apply -Very few racers replace the steering column so the collapsing feature remains intact. Again, that's gonna depend. Combination street/ track cars probably have their original columns. Full blown racers rarely do. -Factory door bars are not removed unless your cage includes them. I've got 2 cars in the back which would disagree with you -Rollover roof intrusion is horrible on factory designs, a cage dramatically improves that. I agree, but it still can't be the only factor. Total overall design must be considered -Factory belts are designed to allow us to get in and out of a car easily and have some semblance of restraint and reasonable body deceleration in a sudden stoppage. They do little to nothing in any other situation and allow your torso to travel all over the cockpit banging into everything. A harness is waaay better in all of those situations. I agree completely -We remove the 5mph impact features built into the bumpers so a factory design does win there. -We remove airbags, but a hans device, a harness, a neck collar, and a seat with headrest wings easily replace them. I doubt anyone is going to use a hans on the street, so my original comment stands I'm know lots of research goes into car safety, but most of the standard safety mechanisms used in race cars are well thought out and an improvement on factory compromises made for cost or convenience. I agree with you. But none of them are designed to function independently. They are individual pieces of an overall approach to safety design

Note that I am NOT arguing against any racing safety device. I think they are generally superior in all ways to factory components. They just can't be utilized independently.

One other note on cages. Unfortunately, among the crowd that would consider driving a cage on the street, there is probably also a large percentage who would build a crappy cage (GRM crowd excluded ). That would certainly complicate the discussion, as it could potentially serve to stiffen the car in weird ways, yet fail to offer the protection it is supposed to.

JoeyM
JoeyM HalfDork
6/4/10 6:48 a.m.
sachilles wrote: Does this scream mythbuster episode or what?

It certainly does.

JoeyM
JoeyM HalfDork
6/4/10 8:58 a.m.

FWIW, I just suggested that they do an episode on this. You guys may want to chime in here and express a similar opinion...

Rusnak_322
Rusnak_322 Reader
6/4/10 11:35 a.m.

mythbusters would do as accurate analysis as Top Gear. They are more entertainment anymore.

red5_02
red5_02 New Reader
6/4/10 6:31 p.m.
Rusnak_322 wrote: mythbusters would do as accurate analysis as Top Gear. They are more entertainment anymore.

Jaime-"Well we couldn't get the car into a controlled rollover so we strapped 50lbs of C4 to the driver's floor pan to simulate a force strong enough to produce a rollover."

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