Instructor Rant

Over the last week, with two entirely different clubs and two different venues, I witnessed two cars with NOVICE drivers hit Armco. Both times there were "Instructors" in the car.

That really frustrates me . . . there is a fine line between instructing a NOVICE, and coaching a race driver. Why don't some people get it? GRRR.

I know who won't be on the "Instructors A-List" for my events.

At what point in the day did this happen? Unless it was the first lap heroics, the instructors should have had time to evaluate what they were working with.

Otherwise, it sounds like over-instruction. You can get someone who listens up to speed and over their head pretty quickly.

How bad were the hits? That's really a shame and screws up everyone's weekend. Not all great drivers make great instructors.

While I know I'm an amazing driver,

I apparently suck at instructing. I made my wife cry at her first autocross. Thankfully she has forgiven me and picked up the gauntlet once again.

I remember my instructor getting into the car the first time I hit the track. My drivers seat had been replaced with a race bucket, and I had a 5-point harness. The passenger seat was the OEM seat with motorized Civic seatbelt. He looked at my gear, then down at his own, and said "gee, thanks a lot."

He was kidding, but it was a good point!

pinchvalve wrote: I remember my instructor getting into the car the first time I hit the track. My drivers seat had been replaced with a race bucket, and I had a 5-point harness. The passenger seat was the OEM seat with motorized Civic seatbelt. He looked at my gear, then down at his own, and said "gee, thanks a lot." He was kidding, but it was a good point!

My car is in this condition, so I have not bothered to attend any events this year

m

I'm worried about just this sort of thing. I autocross and rallycross so overcooking turns every now and again is part of the game. I screw them up, I recover, I move on. When I've gone to watch events at MSR Houston where I'm likely to do HPDE, I can't quite get over how incredibly close the walls look. I would hope that an instructor would help me out and keep me from being stupid, but what if they don't?

In reply to pinchvalve:

Actually most HPDE organizations require same safety gear for driver and passenger. PSA for the day.

As an instructor myself, I work students up to speed and braking points. I even give them a top speed sometimes on a long straight and say don't exceed X mph. Then when it comes to the braking zone I tell them, I'm going to have you brake really early and you will be slow into the turn. But that is better than over cooking it and ending up in the gravel. Once they get that braking down, I move the braking point farther up by a few car lengths. Then by 1 car length, then by a few feet. That way when the pucker factor moment comes, they don't go flying off track, they just miss their line. They can then back up the braking by those few feet and hit their marks the next time through.

pinchvalve wrote: My drivers seat had been replaced with a race bucket, and I had a 5-point harness. The passenger seat was the OEM seat with motorized Civic seatbelt.

Replace "Civic" with "26 year old Toyota", and I resemble this statement.

mazdeuce wrote: I'm worried about just this sort of thing. I autocross and rallycross so overcooking turns every now and again is part of the game. I screw them up, I recover, I move on. When I've gone to watch events at MSR Houston where I'm likely to do HPDE, I can't quite get over how incredibly close the walls look. I would hope that an instructor would help me out and keep me from being stupid, but what if they don't?

You shouldn't have to worry about it - just use your head a little.

Your 1st few sessions in the novice group will be slightly above parade lap pace with the instructor pointing out conservative braking & turn-in points well before you get there. If you seem competent, he/she will loosen the reins as the day goes on.

If you try to cowboy it, blow off his/her advice and screw up with your foot to the floor, you would be subject to a stern lecture. And rightly so.

I live in NASA's home region, and remember several years ago they "uncertified" their entire instructor pool and wouldn't let them back in until they'd done some additional training and testing. I thought that it was a very stand-up response to similar concerns, and I know for sure that they lost a prima-dona or two plus a few other guys who weren't allowed to resume teaching. What I'm getting at is that this sort of thing is probably regional in nature. Where I live, I prefer NASA's product to most of what SCCA and the other track day sponsors provide. In other regions I've heard less than flattering things about NASA. Demand quality or go elsewhere.

In my experience, most auto cross instructors and the like are enthusiastic, but totally inexperienced with the actual art of teaching.

So at what point does it become the driver's fault and not the instructor's?

I instructed two students this past weekend. Both were very quick (see my previous post about the HPDE goddess), both had good sense and I was relaxed almost the entire time. Had to rein them in ever-so-slightly once or twice, but they were already ahead of me by the time I got the "uhh..." part out.

We lost a first time ever student into the tire wall in a car I could very easily have been assigned to. In getting what details I could about what happened, it was a combination of factors that led to the multi-thousand dollar repair bill the guy is facing: 1) damp track 2) hit the inside curbing at a spot I wouldn't do it in the dry 3) and I'm guessing here...probably performed the "both feet in" solution, which likely didn't do anything to help. Hitting the curb and quickly going sideways in this particular instance didn't allow the instructor to do much of anything except exclaim "Oh berkeley!".

If drivers are clearly and/or repeatedly exceeding their ability to be safe, I'm calling them on it and parking the car if need be. Sometimes, however, things just go wrong, and it's part of the learning experience. Which is why we always tell you to not bring a car you can't afford to wad up. This is serious business.

FWIW, I performed a crowd pleasing pirouette into the gravel trap myself that same day.

Matt B wrote: While I know I'm an amazing driver, I apparently suck at instructing. I made my wife cry at her first autocross. Thankfully she has forgiven me and picked up the gauntlet once again.

This is why I stayed way clear when my wife did a novice school. I let her designated instructor do all the instructing. I've learned that she doesn't take constructive criticism (at least from me) very well.

Cone_Junky wrote:

Matt B wrote: While I know I'm an amazing driver, I apparently suck at instructing. I made my wife cry at her first autocross. Thankfully she has forgiven me and picked up the gauntlet once again.

This is why I stayed way clear when my wife did a novice school. I let her designated instructor do all the instructing. I've learned that she doesn't take constructive criticism (at least from me) very well.

I am good at instructing, and my fiancee does not like having me as an instructor.

Beer Baron wrote:

Cone_Junky wrote:

Matt B wrote: While I know I'm an amazing driver, I apparently suck at instructing. I made my wife cry at her first autocross. Thankfully she has forgiven me and picked up the gauntlet once again.

This is why I stayed way clear when my wife did a novice school. I let her designated instructor do all the instructing. I've learned that she doesn't take constructive criticism (at least from me) very well.

I am good at instructing, and my fiancee does not like having me as an instructor.

Yup. Did a skid car school with the wife. Made sure we were in separate cars. She can't take my instructions when she's trying to parallel park, how is she going to handle it when she's sliding sideways?

As a corolary for the longest time I would get wicked nervous with my Dad in the passenger seat since I knew how good a driver he is. So yeah trying different instructors is usually a good thing.

ddavidv wrote: So at what point does it become the driver's fault and not the instructor's?

in my view it's always the driver's fault. The driver is the one who presumably knows his own car. While he may not know the correct fastest lines on the track, anyone driving a car on or off the track should drive within their capabilities and ramp up as they learn the course, learn the line, etc. The instructor isn't there to tell you how to drive a car, he's there to show you how to take the best line.

Taking a poor line should not result in being in the wall. It should just result in slow lap times.

irish44j wrote:

ddavidv wrote: So at what point does it become the driver's fault and not the instructor's?

in my view it's always the driver's fault. The driver is the one who presumably knows his own car. While he may not know the correct fastest lines on the track, anyone driving a car on or off the track should drive within their capabilities and ramp up as they learn the course, learn the line, etc. The instructor isn't there to tell you how to drive a car, he's there to show you how to take the best line. Taking a poor line should not result in being in the wall. It should just result in slow lap times.

Erm... respectfully disagree. Teaching the line is probably the easiest and smallest job an instructor has. There are a whole bunch of skills needed to drive safely on an open track that a novice does not yet possess. Things like: awareness of where the safety stations are, awareness of what traffic is doing around you, how to pass, how to be passed, how to be smooth with all the controls, how to relax, where to look, how to progressively approach the limit, etc. It is the job of the instructor to help guide the student into gaining these skills. If it were only about finding the line, you could just plop a student down with Forza for an hour.

I would much rather have a student with a sloppy line who doesn't use all the track than a student that uses the controls as on/off switches.

Beer Baron wrote:

irish44j wrote:

ddavidv wrote: So at what point does it become the driver's fault and not the instructor's?

in my view it's always the driver's fault. The driver is the one who presumably knows his own car. While he may not know the correct fastest lines on the track, anyone driving a car on or off the track should drive within their capabilities and ramp up as they learn the course, learn the line, etc. The instructor isn't there to tell you how to drive a car, he's there to show you how to take the best line. Taking a poor line should not result in being in the wall. It should just result in slow lap times.

Erm... respectfully disagree. Teaching the line is probably the easiest and smallest job an instructor has. There are a whole bunch of skills needed to drive safely on an open track that a novice does not yet possess. Things like: awareness of where the safety stations are, awareness of what traffic is doing around you, how to pass, how to be passed, how to be smooth with all the controls, how to relax, where to look, how to progressively approach the limit, etc. It is the job of the instructor to help guide the student into gaining these skills. If it were only about finding the line, you could just plop a student down with Forza for an hour. I would much rather have a student with a sloppy line who doesn't use all the track than a student that uses the controls as on/off switches.

obviously the instructor has responsibility to teach first-time track drivers about how to deal with traffic/passing and give them tips on better driving. That should be a given. Didn't mean to say otherwise. Let's change my wording from "driving the car" to " operating the car."

I just mean that If someone is going to a trackday, that person should be familiar with their car (on street or autocross) and be able to drive it well within the limits before slowing moving closer to the limits. The only thing an instructor can say is "slow down" but unless the driver immediately (and smoothly) obeys, it can already be too late.

By the time a driver is starting to push the car, he presumably already has a number of slower laps done and if he was paying attention he should have a good idea of the course and shouldn't be surprised by a turn or shoulder or wet patch (unless it is actively raining)

I'll stand by my statement that any single-car wreck at a track is the responsibility of the driver and only the driver, since I doubt there are (or shouldn't be) instructors that are pushing students to go past the limits of their cars and/or do stupid things.

You guys would be terrified, and I was too, at how lax the "instruction" for HST (high speed touring, track days) is at my local track.

pinchvalve wrote: I remember my instructor getting into the car the first time I hit the track. My drivers seat had been replaced with a race bucket, and I had a 5-point harness. The passenger seat was the OEM seat with motorized Civic seatbelt. He looked at my gear, then down at his own, and said "gee, thanks a lot." He was kidding, but it was a good point!

most DE organizations won't let the instructor ride in a car like that ... the requirement is, the seating and restraints systems must be equal

The equipment SHOULD be equal, but it isn't always known in advance and thus left up to the individual instructor to choose to ride in the car or not. I haven't been faced with that dilemma yet. I hate to tell anyone "no", and may try a session to see what the person drives like, but I'm going to have you on a very short leash.

I have to add that it happened to me this past weekend. I have been instructing for over 5 years. We had what you would call a mechanical issue and ended up having an incident.

I can assure you that no instructor wants to be in that situation. I can also assure you that we instructors are always trying to understand what we could have done to prevent the incident. I can also assure you that this is not taken lightly by those of us who instruct and I wish that I could have done something, anything, to prevent it. Nobody was injured in my case, but that is cold comfort.

I can also add that you should strap into the right seat once yourself before casting aspersions. I have never had any incident as an instructor before this weekend.