OutOfFocus wrote:z31maniac wrote: ^EVO X? Normal manual or DCT?VIII!
The DCTs in the EVO X (you know the same gen that's been out for almost a decade now) has shown to be fragile/heat sensitive, like going into limp mode from spirited driving. $500+ oil changes, etc.
z31maniac wrote:OutOfFocus wrote:The DCTs in the EVO X (you know the same gen that's been out for almost a decade now) has shown to be fragile/heat sensitive, like going into limp mode from spirited driving. $500+ oil changes, etc.z31maniac wrote: ^EVO X? Normal manual or DCT?VIII!
I haven't heard much about that locally but it may have to do with the local tuners doing some tweaks to the ECU. I can see higher repair costs to the X. It seems to have more electronic drivers aids than a USDM VIII.
Vracer111 wrote: I don't know why nearly everyone says take a GSR to make a Type R equivalent clone. If you want to make a Type R equivalent clone the best chassis to use would be an RS not a GSR. When i went from a GS to an RS the handling difference was pretty noticeable because of the weight difference and lack of moonroof. Was also nice that there was no ABS to have to deal with either! Would snatch up a Type R in an instant if I ever have the chance to get one, the RS was almost just as fun as my FR-S is to drive, but it has a much better motor (the B series is also the absolutely sweetest sounding I4 motor ever made along with the 20V 4AGE...civic motor in a Lola...)! The motor, suspension, and light weight chassis is what makes those cars...plus the hatch just swallows a whole lot of stuff (much more than my FR-S) - love them! They are basically the FWD equivalent of the FR-S...the chassis was built for handling and the steering is really good in them (especially when you depower the power steering and get the steering feel better than the FR-S)
I actually like the 98-01 Integra ABS system, it isn't failure prone like the 94-97 ABS system. The ITR ABS system is also really good.
Getting an ITR has crossed my mind, but then the s2000 keeps popping up for similar costs...
The trend I've noticed from my own behavior: Scoff at someone for paying too much for a car...find all kinds of justifications why I'm smarter because I didn't overpay, or car x is faster for cheaper...shake my head when that same car sells a few years later for twice as much.
Meanwhile, someone got paid to have fun with a cool car and all they had to do was understand the market, appreciate the car, and buck up.
You can always go faster and maybe even have more fun if your only goal is to go as fast as possible, as cheaply as possible. Meanwhile, someone is going to buy a rare car, enjoy it for a few years, and then sell it at a profit. There's nothing wrong with that.
Four. that's the number of aircooled 911s in the last 5 years that I was $2-3k away from being the right deal because they were 'overpriced.' You don't always have to make the best deal, just a good one. Lesson learned.
In reply to OutOfFocus:
All three cars put down fastest production fwd times when they were run. The redline was slightly lighter and had 17's instead of 18's. That's also why they were always quicker than their ss/sc brethren out of the box.
By slightly lighter, we're probably only talking about 100lbs difference between the models. 
Wasn't the hp/liter of the ITR one of the highest for NA cars at the time? Or am I thinking or something else?
I would say if you've never driven one you should definitely do your best to try one out, it really is that good. The revs, the shifter, the seats, the sound, it all works so well together it comes across as greater than the sum of it's parts.
I'd love to have one, but fear the insurance and it still being in my garage the next morning. Also, now that they are becoming more expensive than S2K's (of which I've also owned) if I did get one it would have to be for the collector value. I'm sure S2K's will start appreciating in value more quickly over the next few years as their numbers continue to drop.
In reply to CobraSpdRH:
They held the n/a HP per liter until the s2k....
yamaha wrote: In reply to CobraSpdRH: They held the n/a HP per liter until the s2k....
And given the long-ish stroke, they had the highest piston speeds and may still hold that one.
Tyler H wrote: The trend I've noticed from my own behavior: Scoff at someone for paying too much for a car...find all kinds of justifications why I'm smarter because I didn't overpay, or car x is faster for cheaper...shake my head when that same car sells a few years later for twice as much. Meanwhile, someone got paid to have fun with a cool car and all they had to do was understand the market, appreciate the car, and buck up. You can always go faster and maybe even have more fun if your only goal is to go as fast as possible, as cheaply as possible. Meanwhile, someone is going to buy a rare car, enjoy it for a few years, and then sell it at a profit. There's nothing wrong with that. Four. that's the number of aircooled 911s in the last 5 years that I was $2-3k away from being the right deal because they were 'overpriced.' You don't always have to make the best deal, just a good one. Lesson learned.
I feel this way about Miatas. I've seen prices rise locally for the past few years that now you can get a beat up barely running NA that is setup improperly for any fun driving for the same price as a pristine NB. Not sure who is cracked out between the buyers and sellers because someone is actually buying these. I would never consider owning an NA again because of this and hoping the ND is good.
I went to lunch today in Scott Lear's ITR. It's a great car, and I'm not a Honda fanboi by any stretch.
Think of it as an E30 M3, a Shelby Mustang GT-350, or a Porsche 911 RS America. That's why it has increased in price--- it was a factory built racer. The differences between the ITR and the GSR are many, but visually the cars are so similar it's easy to forget.
Scott's car is the best handling fwd machine that I've ever driven. His is a bit modified, but the "essence" of the stock car is still very evident. It's loud, peaky, but hilarious. It would also absolutely spank nearly all of the current "hot hatches" around an autocross course....and most road courses as well. (unless they had very long straights)
The ITR was a high-point for Honda. It was more focused and rare than the S2000 and far more affordable than the NSX. In my mind, it's the best "sports" car they ever made. You can mod a GSR all you want--- it may go faster than an ITR, but it will never be the same.
Joe Gearin wrote: I went to lunch today in Scott Lear's ITR.
That exact car made me a fanboi way back when.
Scott running his ITR at North Park. Good times!
Wow, the memories! Thanks for digging up that photo, been a while since I had to wear a jacket at an autocross...
Joe pointed this thread out to me, figured I'd chime in. I've owned my ITR since I bought it new in Pittsburgh back in 2001, it was my daily driver until I picked up a beater around 2004 for the purpose of soaking up miles, and it's been my autocross/track/weekend toy ever since. It's got almost 70,000 miles on it now, so it's still a pretty fresh example. As Joe mentioned it's more stock than not: TEIN coil-overs, roll bar and seat/harness, intake, wheels, pads, fluid. I still have all the stock parts in boxes.
Put bluntly, the Type R is a rare example of a car built by enthusiasts for enthusiasts, with minimal corporate BS getting in the way or diluting it to sell more cars or appeal to a broader audience. The fact that Honda managed to achieve this while still keeping a reasonable budget is commendable. Driving press fleet cars for 8 years at GRM gave me plenty of wheel time in plenty of different automobiles, and the only other factory machine that I feel had the same level of crisp handling feel in bone stock trim was the Evo MR. At the time it was a bunch more expensive, though, and I didn't love the laggier turbo motor. The only other stock engines that have tingled my senses in the same way as the Type R's B18C5 are the E92 M3's high-revving V8, and the screaming Coyote V8 in a World Challenge-spec BOSS 302S. The S2000 has an awesome powerplant, but I'm too tall and haven't ever been comfortable sitting in an S2K, so that kinda numbed my thrills in those.
The R made absolutely zero sense as an "Acura," since it's so out of tune with a luxury brand. While selling cars in Pittsburgh I heard an amusing tale from a buddy who sold Acuras about a buyer who wanted the "top of the line" Integra, bought an R, and brought it back 2 days later complaining that it was too loud and stiff. Well dur, it doesn't have an ounce of sound deadening material anywhere in the body. It's a kart. The earliest ones were available without radios or AC, because ounces matter.
There were "faster" cars for sale when the Type R was new, and there are many more available today, particularly in a straight line. But very few automobiles strike such a tremendous balance of handling agility, usable power and crazy joy-buzzer fun in the same stock package. It gets 30mpg on the way to the autocross, can stomp most cars there, and has room for all the tires and gear in its big honkin hatch when the day is done.
They're coming up in value, the apparently high mark was a unicorn low-mileage 1997 example (only 300 imported) that sold for over $40k a few months ago. A lot of folks called BS on the sale, but the rumor mill churns and some folks we trust have said it was a legit purchase by a dealer looking to invest, and it's probably going to pay off in the long run. Most of them are not worth that much...yet. But the Type R is an inevitable collector car. Low production numbers, pretty active club community, and most importantly, the folks who pined over one when they were young have good jobs now and the money to put the dream car of their youth in their garage. It happened with muscle cars of the 60s, it'll happen again with hot imports of the 90s and 2000s. Can't wait till I see one on TV crossing the Barrett-Jackson block.
Like any car, it's an emotional decision. If you think you want one, try to find an example to test drive and you might just fall head-over-heels in love. If you're into big honkin V8s with rear-drive torque, it's not going to convert you, though it might just surprise you. You can wail the snot out of 'em and have as much fun as you would in ANYTHING without being thrown instantly in jail. They're just distilled fun on four wheels.
I've driven a few hundred performance cars and I've never driven anything that would replace the Type R's spot in my garage. (But I'm hardly the baseline by which humanity should be measured!)
I wrote a pretty comprehensive buyer's guide on the Type R a few years back....maybe one of the staffers can peek at the library and see which issue that was.
Oh, it's probably on that sheet, but worth noting that the DC2R actually has a different rear chassis stamping than the other DC2s. Lots of non-Rs had trouble running thick anti-roll bars in the rear because the sheet metal would tear out, so unless the bar kit had a super-beefy mounting bracket you could find yourself in trouble. For the Type R the altered the chassis to allow use of the stock 22mm anti-roll bar, so the rear dampers are a different mounting altogether (similar to the CRX, if my memory of the Koni catalog serves).
Good cars. Likely the LAST decent FWD suspension from Honda. Awesome engine, LSD, etc. If the were reasonably priced, I'd own one and I don't like Hondars in general. That should tell you something.
Interesting story that won't add any value to the post but I've heard of people spotting an older woman semi-locally putting around in a stock ITR. Not sure what the deal is but people assume it's just some old lady who doesn't realize exactly what she bought other than the fact it goes from A to B.
I was interested in one back in the day when they were new. Not sure I could've kept it in my driveway though, they were stolen constantly. In the end I didn't want to have to constantly be worried about it being where I'd left it and I bought something else.
Of course I regret that now...
So speaking of the Type R/GSR I found a DC2 chassis on craigslist locally for under 2K. Has 200K+ on the ticker, but meh, I know way to much about Honda for someone who only owned one for about 1 month. (EF hatch) It looks like it's been wrecked, and modified so that is something I am really going to have to look over. But if I can get with the guy tomorrow I think I am going to bring a fat stack of cash with me, and see if that can't talk him down. A $2015/16 build would be great, but I'll likely blow that budget restoring it back to a OEM state or in suspension updates alone.
aircooled wrote: Same motor as the GSR?
No, same block, pretty much everything else is different.
CobraSpdRH wrote: Wasn't the hp/liter of the ITR one of the highest for NA cars at the time? Or am I thinking or something else? I would say if you've never driven one you should definitely do your best to try one out, it really is that good. The revs, the shifter, the seats, the sound, it all works so well together it comes across as greater than the sum of it's parts. I'd love to have one, but fear the insurance and it still being in my garage the next morning. Also, now that they are becoming more expensive than S2K's (of which I've also owned) if I did get one it would have to be for the collector value. I'm sure S2K's will start appreciating in value more quickly over the next few years as their numbers continue to drop.
Not one of the highest, the highest until the S2K came out.
I would have gotten a type R but they were not importing the sedans, and I needed a sedan. Got a GSR sedan in 1998 and could have gotten an ITR for just a little bit more, as I had a family member in the business who hooked me up. Still kicking myself over that one.
You could make a pretty similar, close enough to as capable not to discern the difference on the track car. If you took an RS, stripped out all the sound deadening, welded in some reinforcements in roof and suspension areas, acid dipped all the glass to get the chassis together. I wonder if they seam welded them, they did everything else, I would go ahead and do that too. Then find some Japanese guy who has screwed together thousands of engines like it to take some time off his regular gig as a mechanic for the big red H race team. Get a B18C block and have him build you a balanced, blueprinted bottom end with matched pistons that have oil squirters so the bottom of them don't get too hot, get cams and the head off another motor. Then he polishes every surface in it that interacts with another piece directly obsessively, and puts some magic stuff on the bearings to make it attract oil like a magnet
They had Mr Senna kicking everyone's asses in F1 using their motors already. They built the ITR to keep winning, and they did. They lost money on every one of those cars, just so you could take any one of them to the track and win. It has a functional wing for the same reason they put them on Daytona Chargers back in the day, to win at the track. The wing is not as good for drying your beach towel as a DC/Superbird, but it is the same car, philosophically
I think it'd just be cheaper to do a weld in roll cage, strip the interior, and but a B18C (note, not a C1) in. I was browsing around last night and a complete TypeR swap (5spd LSD, ECU, Harness, Axles, Engine) was around 4K. A lot for a 4cylinder, but I guess if you want to build a clone, you've gotta pay to play.
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