Interesting used cars and their prices

Simple question and I'm guessing a complex answer. 
 

Why are interesting used cars so expensive?

I was just talking with my boss earlier who is approaching retirement age and he was saying that for his first car he could choose almost anything on a normal budget. He had his pick of Camaros, Mustangs, Cudas... whatever. He ended up with a REPU btw. 
It seems those days are long gone but why? I don't mean muscle cars, but just interesting cars in general. The fun stuff that is affordable is usually that way because there is a massive gotcha and only the brave are really able to buy that kind of car, or at least that's the perception. It seems in the last 10 years or so most cars that are sporty or interesting have climbed in value enough that it takes a pretty substantial buy in to obtain one. 911s with exception of the 996 are probably the best example of this I can think of. 
 

What happened here? Is this just my perception?

Also, I'm aware that there are still great deals to be had but they seems less common. I would say Miatas are in this category and 986s as well. But I think these are exceptions to the rule. 

There have not been many sporty cars made/sold in the last ten-twenty years so supply is dwindling.

For sure some awesome metal has been stamped out and shipped, but the dealer lots no longer have acres of small, low budget sport compacts like 240SXs and MX-6/Probes and dozens of other models.  Now it is all SUVs and everyone is fighting over Miatas and vintage stuff and expensive cars.  V8 Mustangs are no longer $15000...

This is squarely in my field of expertise, so I'll take a crack at it.

Short answer: Because all used cars have become expensive.

Long answer: The cash for clunkers program quite literally crushed part of the supply of sub $3000 vehicles. As years have marched on, not only have new cars become steadily more expensive (average new car is $35,000 or so), but manufacturers have been loathe to produce anything that isn't a truck or an SUV. Even the i-love-living-beyond-my-means-Americans can't lie to themselves about being about to afford a new vehicle, and instead have gravitated towards used vehicles, driving prices up across the board. Supply is down (due to raw availability and a lack of new sports cars being manufactured), demand is up, so prices go up.

Combine this with the fact that anything sporty + German is not only eye-wateringly expensive brand new, but becomes a time bomb the second they're out of warranty (Porsche is perhaps the exception here), and you've eliminated one of the few remaining options in the segment. 

As a counterpoint, I will argue that we live in a golden era of "cheap" speed. Lightly used Mustangs and Camaros would trounce a supercar from 15 years ago, nearly every manf has a TTV6 in the stable that can be cheaply tuned, used Corvettes are an absolute bargain...unfortunately almost all of those examples saddle you with a 3500+ pound vehicle though. 

We're not still talking about cash for clunkers for real, are we?

In reply to calteg :

Good info and fair point regarding the speed. That's absolutely true. 
 

I don't think speed is fun though. Well, not for long. I haven't owned a "fast" car by modern standards but even my sub 300hp quick car was too fast for the street. Realizing that was the beginning of a total shift for me. I sold that car and bought something a decade older, slower and maybe less desirable. But I love it and I wouldn't go back. That trajectory brings me to this point. The things I want are all out of reach. Even E36 M3s which were cheap a few years ago are starting to climb and will soon be out of reach. The most appealing cars to me are quickly becoming out of reach. Im at the tail end of the millennial generation so that might be the reason for my specific viewpoint. 

Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

We're not still talking about cash for clunkers for real, are we?

+1 and one million more

cash for clunkers crushed 700k cars?  thats less than the number of F150s sold each year.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091007021106/http://www.cars.gov/files/08.26%20Press%20Release.pdf

84% of the vehicles crushed were trucks or 4x4's....  most of those look like F150's..  

Horsepower isn't everything. I had a ton of fun the last time I rode a bicycle. I struggle to put out more than 1hp for any meaningful period of time.

In reply to calteg :

Sorry, it wasn't cash for clunkers. It was the fact that we took something in the range of 20M potential car sales out of the market. In 2007, we were at about 16M/year new car sales, it took till 2014 to get back above 16M/year in sales with the low just above 10M.

Combine that with the loss of the small sporty car, there are not a lot of options. In the 90s there were options with every manufacturer for a small sporty car. Now, Some of the stalwarts have have them in their line up but the overall numbers produced are a lot smaller.

I agree on the Germans but really has that changed much in the last 25 year? It's more that we lost the small Japanese sport coupe. Honda still has the Civic SI but it is selling a lot less and there are more drivers out there than ever before. 

It's just a smaller market of available cars in a time of cheap money and high demand on the low end. 

Who makes "cars" anymore? Everything is either an exotic or a Minivan or SUV or TRUCK or Cross-Over.

The main purpose of a vehicle now is to carry around the infotainment center.  That said, have you drag raced any of the current crop of Mini Vans? They do scoot.

Anything Honda and Car is fun to drive. Miatas are still affordable by my standards. Nissan 350 and 370 are acquired taste but a lot of Car for the $$$. Mustang and Camaros go without saying, but not really cheap unless thrashed.

If you like old stuff. Volvos and MGs are give-aways and quite a lot of fun to drive around and modify if you want.

In reply to spandak :

Newer is faster. You can't beat that. Buy the "Fast" car and a few months later something faster comes out. 
So maybe Fast is no longer the criteria.  Maybe "seems"  fast is more important or just plain fun.  
Ever drive a really old car?  I'm talking Ford Model A or  MGTC?  The Ford at 35 seems fast and 55 is downright scary. 
The MG again seems fast at 35 and 60  on a winding back road is a blast.   
 

Since you're paying relatively little for these cars depreciation isn't part of the equation.  The fun and interest continues long after the fast car has grown old and depreciated. 
Eventually your identity is tied with cars like that.  Nearly 6 decades after acquiring my MG  people eagerly walk up to it and start chatting. Sometimes the comments are along the lines like, "I had one like that, sure wish I hadn't sold it".   Or "what is that cute car"?    
 

Cash for clunkers was the beginning, and not the entirety of my argument. 

There have been some interesting psychological ramifications coming out of the lack of late model sports car variety. Namely, the "I don't want to drive what everyone else is driving" phenomena. I think this has further fueled the interest in older sports cars, owing to the greater variety. Personally, I'm just mad I didn't jump on a MKIV Supra when they were quasi affordable.  

My new Ecoboost Mustang is faster than any race car I used to own. And it's a four cylinder!

My old FP MG Midget race car that ran on race tires, was not street legal and lived on a trailer when it wasn't on the track would have trouble keeping up with what I drove to work today. 

It would probably have a hard time keeping up with Mrs. Snowdoggie's SUV. 

But it has race tires and no windshield and is probably the closest I will ever get to driving a Formula Ford, or a Formula Anything. I want it back. 

In reply to Snowdoggie :

Newer is faster. You can't beat that. But are you looking for fun or a transportation module? 
Fun is hard to get without air bags and impact bumpers. 
 

Your old MG was fun not because it was that fast but because you were in the air. You felt more connected.  Newer,  faster, safer, cars denies you that. 

He's looking in the wrong places. You've already mentioned Miatas.  Some other things that could be found for under $5000, wouldn't be a total snooze, and could be used as a daily driver without checking your sanity at the door:

• "Toaster" era Civic Si's
• Mustangs or Camaros
• Volvo with a T5
• GM W-bodies with the 3800 supercharged motor or LS4
• E46 BMWs
• Subaru Legacy GT
• VW GTI
• Ford Focus SVT

As well as some things with sporting pretensions that may have not lived up to them particularly well, like 3rd gen Eclipses, Scion tCs, and the like.

In reply to frenchyd :

But I still love the screen in the middle of my dashboard in the new car that has the GPS, the satellite radio and connects to my iPhone every time I sit in the car. 

My 914 also has a Garmin and a satellite radio that connects to my iPhone. My 125 cc scooter has a GPS and a plug to charge the iPhone. 

I like the electronics too. I want it all. 

Transportation expectations have changed. If it doesn't have 2 fulls American-sized rows of seating and 4 doors then it's a risk. When is the last time you saw a 2 pickup on the road? You can't miss a 9ft tall pickup rolling around but they're all mall cruisers. Hot hatches have to compete with CUVs and can't afford to sacrifice a feature for hot hatchiness. Then go ahead and throw in sealed transmissions, "lifetime" fluids, and your weight in extraneous electronics and I'd say it's no wonder there aren't more fun, interesting, used cars out there. 

My GTI is 13 years old and it's still too new to be able to hang my arm out the window. When you're insulated and isolated it's no wonder they have to surround you with entertainment centers, you're definitely not experiencing driving. 

In short, by a motorcycle and go out and live dangerous. 

Error404 said:

Transportation expectations have changed. If it doesn't have 2 fulls American-sized rows of seating and 4 doors then it's a risk. When is the last time you saw a 2 pickup on the road? You can't miss a 9ft tall pickup rolling around but they're all mall cruisers. Hot hatches have to compete with CUVs and can't afford to sacrifice a feature for hot hatchiness. Then go ahead and throw in sealed transmissions, "lifetime" fluids, and your weight in extraneous electronics and I'd say it's no wonder there aren't more fun, interesting, used cars out there. 

My GTI is 13 years old and it's still too new to be able to hang my arm out the window. When you're insulated and isolated it's no wonder they have to surround you with entertainment centers, you're definitely not experiencing driving. 

In short, by a motorcycle and go out and live dangerous. 

I keep thinking of the brand new Harleys equipped with GPS screens and satellite stereos. 

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

I think some of that depends on where you are. Those cars tend to have part of the bottom 2" missing further up North. Yes, they are still available, but the supply of them is finite as more and more of them tend to succumb to anything between tin worms and getting wrapped around a tree.

I also seem to notice that prices at the lower end of the price range are a bit HFM, and I think a lot of it has to do with buy-here-pay-here lots and the continued availability of easy-ish credit for stuff that feels like it should be cheaper. Lots of people's incomes never recovered fully after the last Great Recession, so that's likely to boost the demand for cheaper vehicles, too.

tremm said:

I don't know what interesting is, but one explanation for prices is the internet and things like BAT & resellers. Even if grandma doesn't check the value of her classic, someone else will and will scour cl & other markets 

I guess the answer is because that's what someone will pay

 

And it's easier to fly & drive, or otherwise arrange transportation

Would all of those cars really get picked up by somebody locally for a lower price if the Internet and BAT didn't exist, or would they just rot away in grandma's backyard. 

Consider also that rare parts needed to restore this car would be much harder to find without the Internet. 

Snowdoggie said:

Error404 said:

Transportation expectations have changed. If it doesn't have 2 fulls American-sized rows of seating and 4 doors then it's a risk. When is the last time you saw a 2 pickup on the road? You can't miss a 9ft tall pickup rolling around but they're all mall cruisers. Hot hatches have to compete with CUVs and can't afford to sacrifice a feature for hot hatchiness. Then go ahead and throw in sealed transmissions, "lifetime" fluids, and your weight in extraneous electronics and I'd say it's no wonder there aren't more fun, interesting, used cars out there. 

My GTI is 13 years old and it's still too new to be able to hang my arm out the window. When you're insulated and isolated it's no wonder they have to surround you with entertainment centers, you're definitely not experiencing driving. 

In short, by a motorcycle and go out and live dangerous. 

I keep thinking of the brand new Harleys equipped with GPS screens and satellite stereos. 

At that point, you're basically buying a car. Mostly because you can easily spend new car money on a Harley. Go nab a Honday Fury, though, and cruise a coast highway. I keep wanting to but I don't make time to ride as is.

Error404 said:

Transportation expectations have changed. If it doesn't have 2 fulls American-sized rows of seating and 4 doors then it's a risk... Then go ahead and throw in sealed transmissions, "lifetime" fluids, and your weight in extraneous electronics and I'd say it's no wonder there aren't more fun, interesting, used cars out there. 

The same would have applied to typical American cars 50 years ago - a Mustang or Charger, while not having four doors itself, would have a four door counterpart, a claim that the transmission and differential used "lifetime" fluids, and could have a couple hundred pounds added with power options.

BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

I think some of that depends on where you are. Those cars tend to have part of the bottom 2" missing further up North. Yes, they are still available, but the supply of them is finite as more and more of them tend to succumb to anything between tin worms and getting wrapped around a tree.

Modern cars also have much better tin worm repellant - although they also depreciate slower, so this may balance out somewhat.  But yes, that list was mostly based on what's available where I live in the Atlanta area.

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

and "lifetime" was expected to be about 50-70k miles, too.

I have not really seen a change. Discounting the special cars that have risen in value like Porsche and Ferrari. The used car market really has not changed. The supply of sporty special cars is always low due to them not selling as many when new. They get discovered 10 years on and people want them thinking they are affordable as compared to new as they are just a used car. A smaller percentage survive to being 20 years old and the kids that lusted after them are now 40 and have $$$ so it becomes a simple supply and demand situation.  I am old enough now to see this cycle repeat. 
 

The other thing is inflation. $3,000 in 1985 adjusts to about $7000 today in terms of purchasing power. So that 1975 used car that you were looking at in 1985 for 3k is now 7k today just due to the value of the dollar now versus then. Add in supply and demand I noted above and that is why "sporty" cars command the $$$$ they do.  The math really has not changed or the pricing or availability of older desirable cars. It is just a reality check that each generation goes through. 

Snowdoggie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

But I still love the screen in the middle of my dashboard in the new car that has the GPS, the satellite radio and connects to my iPhone every time I sit in the car. 

My 914 also has a Garmin and a satellite radio that connects to my iPhone. My 125 cc scooter has a GPS and a plug to charge the iPhone. 

I like the electronics too. I want it all. 

Decide if you want a transportation module ( with toys)  or you want  the thrill of speed.   
Roads are too jammed with traffic most of the time to get real speed.  Even in light  or no traffic there are patrols. Now days the cops don't have to drive around, they can sit on the side of roads having camera's do the watching  and oops here's a ticket and maybe worse.  
   On rural roads or even suburban roads.  The risks are just too great.  Stuff happens. Kids chase balls or fall off bikes etc.  Old geezers who still drive do the unexpected.  Farmers drive tractors with wide plows hooked behind.  Junk falls off trucks and slashes tires. 
Sooner or later something bad happens and nobody is around to help.  

Error404 said:

Snowdoggie said:

Error404 said:

Transportation expectations have changed. If it doesn't have 2 fulls American-sized rows of seating and 4 doors then it's a risk. When is the last time you saw a 2 pickup on the road? You can't miss a 9ft tall pickup rolling around but they're all mall cruisers. Hot hatches have to compete with CUVs and can't afford to sacrifice a feature for hot hatchiness. Then go ahead and throw in sealed transmissions, "lifetime" fluids, and your weight in extraneous electronics and I'd say it's no wonder there aren't more fun, interesting, used cars out there. 

My GTI is 13 years old and it's still too new to be able to hang my arm out the window. When you're insulated and isolated it's no wonder they have to surround you with entertainment centers, you're definitely not experiencing driving. 

In short, by a motorcycle and go out and live dangerous. 

I keep thinking of the brand new Harleys equipped with GPS screens and satellite stereos. 

At that point, you're basically buying a car. Mostly because you can easily spend new car money on a Harley. Go nab a Honday Fury, though, and cruise a coast highway. I keep wanting to but I don't make time to ride as is.

I already have three motorcycles plus the before mentioned scooter, and five cars. I don't really have to buy anything else unless you know of a bargain on a Formula Ford. I grew up in Northern California driving Highway One in all kinds of two and four wheeled vehicles. Been there. Got the T-shirt. 

I am really thinking of selling my Kawasaki Concours. It's not really safe to ride it around where I live in Dallas anymore. Traffic here is horrendous. People here drive huge trucks and SUVs and they drive them very fast and aggressively, even in heavy traffic. I don't even feel safe driving my Miata here anymore. It's a weekend car now.