Interesting used cars and their prices

calteg said:

Cash for clunkers was the beginning, and not the entirety of my argument. 

 

There have been some interesting psychological ramifications coming out of the lack of late model sports car variety. Namely, the "I don't want to drive what everyone else is driving" phenomena. I think this has further fueled the interest in older sports cars, owing to the greater variety. Personally, I'm just mad I didn't jump on a MKIV Supra when they were quasi affordable.  

The solution is to find the overlooked cars.  Not the MKIV Supra but the old NASCAR road race car, the Ford Model A. The retired SCCA race car. 

I am actually at a point where I can't really afford the stuff I want, and I don't want to sell the interesting cars I have because I can't afford to replace them. 

I am neither a buyer or a seller. 

I just can't see paying $4,000 for a bunch of tubes and a blown up engine that might actually not make a safe Formula Ford to drive even if I dump tons of hours and piles of money into it. When I see something sell for 50K or more that could have bought cheap 20 years ago I just roll my eyes and say, "I'm done." 

I love it when people bring up Cash for Clunkers as if every car that went into it was their dad's fastback mustang with a toploader. Fact is, old cars did GREAT if they made it 100,000 miles (which only changed in the 80s) and some vehicles just were never in large numbers. Take the Isuzu Impulse- only 13,000 of the first gen ever came to the states, and only ~1,200 of the second gen. Even now sporty coupes like the Hyundai Genesis only exist here in the few thousands.

The reality is, living right now means we have pick of the litter over several decades of fun things which is twisting our mindset towards availability. It's absolutely true that there's not as many SPERT CERs as previous decades due to market forces- but with how fast everything's become, there really doesn't NEED to be.

Now as for Spandak's question- I think it's the internet in a roundabout sense. Everyone can be apart of an enthusiast group now, and everyone can "discover" what something is worth to them- what I mean is, its never been easier for someone to decide their item is rare and costly even when logic says otherwise, because they can dip their toes in a like minded group that reinforces their belief.

GIRTHQUAKE said:

 

Now as for Spandak's question- I think it's the internet in a roundabout sense. Everyone can be apart of an enthusiast group now, and everyone can "discover" what something is worth to them- what I mean is, its never been easier for someone to decide their item is rare and costly even when logic says otherwise, because they can dip their toes in a like minded group that reinforces their belief.

Agreed.

Spandak is my neighbor. 

As someone who buys 7-10 cars a year here, one other thing no one mentioned, is geography and inventory. Around here, I can find a Miura, SVX, or a Conquest in one hours time. Our inventory is varied, and you can find anythign you want. But these days, we have to compete with out of staters with internet, and a paypal account. Sellers know this. Thus prices are up. We have clean rust free, 1 owner, dealer maintained cars up the wazoo around here. Guys sitting in Michigan, Chicago, and Utah are constantly runnign down here and buying up the cars. 

I usually keep 2-3 Land Cruisers around on the farm and at the house at all times. In the last 10 years, with Jonathan Ward, Corsetti, BAT, and every speculator, if I don't buy a Land Cruiser in the first 30 minutes, its gone.  If it is here, after that, it is a car with story, grossly overpriced, or wrecked. 

Thus most of us locals know the right zip codes, places where cars are hidden around the state, or the cities in the state with particularly high take rate of MT. You gotta have a southwest ticket ready in hand, and cash at home at all times, to pounce and search, so you don't lose out with "gotta go to bank to get cash" where deals here are done so quickly and often off market.

The actual term for what's happening to sporty car values is GENTRIFICATION. People just don't like to use that word because it's loaded with realities and we are all trying to bury our heads in the sand of our hobbies, not deal with societal issues! 

I actually get letters in the mail from places wanting to buy my 914. How does some out of state company even know what kind of cars I own? 

This seems really creepy. 

After reading through this I guess it comes down to just being a personal issue. When I sold my MS3 I had about $10k to throw at something that I thought would be fun. That list was 2 or maybe 3 cars long that met my definition and was in my budget. Finding candidates was tough. 
 

There are plenty of "sports" cars out there but most modern sports cars aren't. They're over weight or over powered and both things get old. A car is fun at its limits and modern car limits are absurd. I think the sweet spot is in the 80s and 90s and find something good from that era that sing quickly climbing in value. My boss' story was essentially he had his choice of the best performance cars of the era on a high schoolers budget. It's not a direct comparison but unless daddy is paying the bills that's not really possible anymore. 
 

This is all pointless complaining as I ended up with a Boxster and it's wonderful. But I believe I was only able to afford that because the IMS fears keep many people away. 
 

ramble ramble first world problems 

frenchyd said:

In reply to spandak :

Newer is faster. You can't beat that. Buy the "Fast" car and a few months later something faster comes out. 
So maybe Fast is no longer the criteria.  Maybe "seems"  fast is more important or just plain fun.  
Ever drive a really old car?  I'm talking Ford Model A or  MGTC?  The Ford at 35 seems fast and 55 is downright scary. 
The MG again seems fast at 35 and 60  on a winding back road is a blast.   
 

Since you're paying relatively little for these cars depreciation isn't part of the equation.  The fun and interest continues long after the fast car has grown old and depreciated. 
Eventually your identity is tied with cars like that.  Nearly 6 decades after acquiring my MG  people eagerly walk up to it and start chatting. Sometimes the comments are along the lines like, "I had one like that, sure wish I hadn't sold it".   Or "what is that cute car"?    
 

Frenchy is right.  Take an old Jeep Universal.  You might know them as a “CJ” or even a Willy’s if you go way back.  Now, take the top off if it has one and lay the windscreen down flat across the hood.  Make sure you secure the windscreen and ask me sometime how I know this.  Next, install a loud muffler so it’s really visceral.  On a back road you will swear you’re driving a rocket sled.  In reality the vehicle is, in all likelihood, slow as berk.  But you won’t care.

Edit: oh, and Enzo said the Jeep was a “sportscar” so there is that.

They're expensive BECAUSE they're interesting.

If I had bought that 71 Buick Boattail in college for $1200, I'd be a rich man right now.  I had a 73 Clamshell Impala wagon that was bought for $1800 and sold two years later for $4100 because someone else in the world (3000 miles away) thought it was interesting as well.

It just depends on HOW interesting it is and how many people find it interesting.  Everyone wants a Mustang or a Camaro.  The secret is finding that small demographic of people who are really looking for a vanilla used car and they'll pay big money for it.

The other big difference is asking price versus actual market value.  There was a guy here locally with a 93 Beretta that he was trying to sell for $4000 because they are just rare anymore.  I offered him $250 just to be a prick.  He was holding out for the ultra-rare Beretta enthusiast who really wanted one.  I think there are two people that still want a Beretta and he couldn't find either one.  Three years later, it's still for sale with vines growing through the door seals.  Thank goodness he lowered the price to a "bargain" $3000. 

Heck, I tried to sell my 96 Impala SS for two years before Tim bought it at a third of my hopeful "enthusiast" price.  There is the price people want, and the price they can get.

A 401 CJ said:

 Next, install a loud muffler so it’s really visceral.  On a back road you will swear you’re driving a rocket sled.

When I first skimmed your response, I read it as "rocket salad."

I think that's what I'll name the LeMans. 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Heck, I tried to sell my 96 Impala SS for two years before Tim bought it at a third of my hopeful "enthusiast" price.  There is the price people want, and the price they can get.

I think the Impala fell into the range where perfect and near perfect examples sell for a high price, but it hasn’t yet lifted the ones on the lower end of the market.  Kind of like what we saw with NA Miatas for the most part, although that is starting to change.  Until a few years ago, a ratty 99-00 Civic Si was cheap, but even that has changed now.  But, it is still a thing with MGBs and Midgets, so it can’t be just age related, the demand has to be there, too.  I suspect the ratty Miata market is having a negative affect on the ratty MG market  

Edit:  The 94-96  Impala SS may forever be in that split market, since it was kind of a tweener with the LT1 engine.  The Pontiac G8, Chevy SS, and Holden Caprice might end up looking more attractive to a hot rodder.

The two local purple impala ss for sale 9 months + 

one asking 19k 

other asking 28k 

In reply to mr2s2000elise :

At those prices, they'd better be pretty much perfect, and even then, that seems excessive.

They are perfect. They are what I want. But price too high for me 

This is something a buddy and I muse about fairly often.

In the 90s, when I started driving, 1000 dollar cars that ran and drove were out there. In the early 00s, that same relative age range/mileage car was twice as much. Things have inflated further still, to where a car with 130k milea and minimal rust is still a 3k car if not more. That said, 9 times out of ten it doesn't matter what cheap car you're talking about, they were pretty beat. Fun cars worth anything were honestly always more money than we think they were. Eclipse GS-Xs, IROC-Zs, Civic Sis... they were always pricey aside from that one beat one came up in your price range.

I think it's more about windows of time. There's a beautiful moment when popular car du jour becomes something the general populace moves away from, leaving a dearth of affordable toys for people like us to scoop up in just about any condition. You can simplify that to saying a car "bottoms out in value" but to me it's more than that. It's the span of a few years where barrier to entry is low but no one has thought about it in awhile. The E30 was that way in the early 00s, then the Miata. They had a stigma about them until people like us who don't care if we look like a-holes or hairdressers start buying a bunch and shining light on them. The early Boxster is getting there, as is the C5 vette... hell it may already be happening. With the rise of connectivity, word spreads maybe a little TOO fast.

In reply to ebelements :

That may be true that the speed of the internet  quickly adds value. But it can take away just as fast. Look at the cars that don't make it.   I mean darn few Alfa's are around and we have a strong dealer near me. Fiat too!  The handful of smart cars  compared to a flood of Toyota Yaris.  
Not just Italian or German cars either. Suzuki,  are more rare than Morgan and Morgan is a hand built car. 

In reply to ebelements :

Maybe the cars I like are just leaving that window. I did find my Boxster for $7400. That felt like a good deal. 
 

Frenchy: I am tempted by a local Alfa 164. I couldn't lose money on it right? Right? I couldn't actually but I do want a Busso in my life. 

In reply to spandak :

Top Gear claims every gear head  should own an Alfa in their  life.  So I guess you've got that 

As far as making money ?  I'm not the guy to ask. 

I was just happy to find a 2015 used vehicle with three pedals and in decent condition when I did.