The premise behind water injection is simple: Squirt a mixture of water and methanol–windshield washer fluid, basically–into the engine’s combustion chamber to cool the intake charge and prevent detonation.
A few factors decide a given fuel’s detonation point: intake air temperature, ignition timing and cylinder pressure combination. Cylinder pressure can be developed by compression ratio, supercharging or turbocharging. If you …
Has anyone tried running E100 through one of these systems?
You are better off using pure methanol or a blend from an evaporation, octane and detonation resistance point of view.
MrFancypants said:Has anyone tried running E100 through one of these systems?
Why not just tune the car to run on E85 then?
From what I understand most engines can already reach MBT with ~E60, so going all the way to E100 isn't really necessary.
In reply to z31maniac :
Ahhh, fair point.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:You are better off using pure methanol or a blend from an evaporation, octane and detonation resistance point of view.
So my thought about ethanol is that if you live you can get it at the same place you buy gasoline, making it super convenient.
The thing i always think about when trying to explain detonation is all the bomb-camera footage from Vietnam. You could pretty clearly see the pressure wave moving away from the center much faster than the actual flame front. I went ahead and edited out my political statement from the middle there before posting.
Another thing that's interesting about a draw-through turbo setup like that Oldsmobile, or water/meth injection in general, is that at low-ish charge temps your ability to vaporize liquid in the fast-moving charge air is somewhat limited and you are generally just adding a 'safety margin', but as your charge temps go up you can actually vaporize so much liquid that you can stop using an intercooler. Seems kind of counterintuitive! There are a lot of really fast drag cars that inject a huge proportion of their fuel pre-turbo and drop their discharge temps from 500f to 200f roughly. Of course, 200f isn't a great number for a street car on pump gas, but if you're running high octane fuel and can only floor it for 6 seconds at a time without dying, it seems to work out!
In reply to MrFancypants :
That has been my policy. Tune and Run E85 with a back up of washer fluid for times when the E85 you get is less than 85% Ethanol. ( E85 can be as low as 51% ethanol at the pump)
At those times if you have a EFI system where you can dial back timing with a few key strokes, that's what you should do. But if like me you're dealing with distributors and carburetors you need a crutch. Hence windshield washer fluid.
My Luddite solution will be to simply drive knowing the restriction and avoid high boost situations. If that's not possible I flip on the toggle switch and using a Kinzler dial -a-jet squirt in the proper mixture of WW fluid
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:You are better off using pure methanol or a blend from an evaporation, octane and detonation resistance point of view.
-Paul - 1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 ALLMOTOR kptuned.com ig:@needavr6
Pure water is itself an anti detonant, up to 2x the amount of gasoline injected in highly forced induction applications. Ricardo was running incredibly high BMEP while lean of stoich, with the main limitation being the stength of his test engine and the limits of his dynamometer.
Methanol does a wonderful job of reducing charge temps (I have heard of 30+psi turbo engines on carbureted methanol with iced over intake manifolds after a pass) but because it is also a fuel, ultimately it CAN detonate. What water brings to the party is that it is inert and interrupts the detonation process, similar to EGR.
Did some looking into it when researching blower stuff for my Mustang.
Reasons to not go straight ethanol or methanol is that the mix they are using in those isnt combustible on its own, so you dont have to worry about it as much from a safety perspective. Saw a lot of articles on testing percentages of methanol and mixing to get it right, most of the washer fluids need a kick up. Tuning is interesting as you are adding more fuel, so if you tune for it you run lean if you run out and could damage your motor.
The show stopper for me is that SCCA flat bans it for autocross. I suppose they worry about someone torturing the alternative fuel possibilities of it and making a flammable mixture? Either that or just plain rules creep, the alternative fueling could provide a performance advantage that would make it a "need to have to be competitive" thing.
z31maniac said:MrFancypants said:Has anyone tried running E100 through one of these systems?
Why not just tune the car to run on E85 then?
From what I understand most engines can already reach MBT with ~E60, so going all the way to E100 isn't really necessary.
The problem is that E85 can have as low as 51% ethanol in it from the pump. Modern sensors can detect and adjust automatically ( if properly programmed) but on carbed engines or older EFI that's not possible.
frenchyd said:z31maniac said:MrFancypants said:Has anyone tried running E100 through one of these systems?
Why not just tune the car to run on E85 then?
From what I understand most engines can already reach MBT with ~E60, so going all the way to E100 isn't really necessary.
The problem is that E85 can have as low as 51% ethanol in it from the pump. Modern sensors can detect and adjust automatically ( if properly programmed) but on carbed engines or older EFI that's not possible.
I was more curious than seriously considering it. Just seems like an interesting supplement for those of us whose fuel systems can't move enough fluid to take full advantage of an E85 tune.
I've been considering a water only injection setup to avoid having to install an extra 20 lbs worth of aftermarket intercooler so far forward on the car. Obviously the water pump and reservoir have weight, but I can place those anywhere I want. Given that I have a nose heavy FWD car I'd prefer the reservoir to at least be located aft of the front axle.
frenchyd said:z31maniac said:MrFancypants said:Has anyone tried running E100 through one of these systems?
Why not just tune the car to run on E85 then?
From what I understand most engines can already reach MBT with ~E60, so going all the way to E100 isn't really necessary.
The problem is that E85 can have as low as 51% ethanol in it from the pump. Modern sensors can detect and adjust automatically ( if properly programmed) but on carbed engines or older EFI that's not possible.
True on carb'd vehicles.
But I've been driving since '98, the only thing I've ever owned with a carb is a lawnmower. 
Apexcarver said:The show stopper for me is that SCCA flat bans it for autocross. I suppose they worry about someone torturing the alternative fuel possibilities of it and making a flammable mixture? Either that or just plain rules creep, the alternative fueling could provide a performance advantage that would make it a "need to have to be competitive" thing.
Sorry, what is banned by the SCCA? I thought as long as you are <49% methanol and the mixture was outside the passenger compartment it was ok?
What is the car in the picture?
mikeatrpi said:Apexcarver said:The show stopper for me is that SCCA flat bans it for autocross. I suppose they worry about someone torturing the alternative fuel possibilities of it and making a flammable mixture? Either that or just plain rules creep, the alternative fueling could provide a performance advantage that would make it a "need to have to be competitive" thing.
Sorry, what is banned by the SCCA? I thought as long as you are <49% methanol and the mixture was outside the passenger compartment it was ok?
Solo rules 3.3.3 (safety inspections) B 22."Alcohol may not be used in manifold injection or spray bottles"
Rallycross rules 3.2 R. "Nitrous oxide and methanol/alcohol injection systems are prohibited."
Street prepared does allow straight water injection though. You just cant use Meth.
CAinCA said:What is the car in the picture?
Factory Five 818, its a kit car
https://www.factoryfive.com/818/
Thank you Apexcarver.
mikeatrpi said:Apexcarver said:The show stopper for me is that SCCA flat bans it for autocross. I suppose they worry about someone torturing the alternative fuel possibilities of it and making a flammable mixture? Either that or just plain rules creep, the alternative fueling could provide a performance advantage that would make it a "need to have to be competitive" thing.
Sorry, what is banned by the SCCA? I thought as long as you are <49% methanol and the mixture was outside the passenger compartment it was ok?
Can't be a fire issue because even relatively small amounts of water will prevent burning. At The Indy 500 they have buckets of water every few feet to throw on fires. One well aimed bucket will put out a alcohol fire easily.
We had an indycar running a hillclimb I was flagging. Its not as simple as you make it sound; methanol burns invisibly, so we had a whole separate set of extinguishers to use just if it was that car with added training on just dousing the driver with the water extinguisher if he was acting like he was being attacked by bees.
frenchyd said:mikeatrpi said:Apexcarver said:The show stopper for me is that SCCA flat bans it for autocross. I suppose they worry about someone torturing the alternative fuel possibilities of it and making a flammable mixture? Either that or just plain rules creep, the alternative fueling could provide a performance advantage that would make it a "need to have to be competitive" thing.
Sorry, what is banned by the SCCA? I thought as long as you are <49% methanol and the mixture was outside the passenger compartment it was ok?
Can't be a fire issue because even relatively small amounts of water will prevent burning. At The Indy 500 they have buckets of water every few feet to throw on fires. One well aimed bucket will put out a alcohol fire easily.
Windshield washer fluid will burn in a fire. You cannot start a fire with it, but it will happily add to an existing fire.
I do not recall the mix percentage on the jug, I was too busy having fun playing with fire.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Depending on temp it can be up to 20% meth to water most are around 10-15%. So no it won't burn
I watched Indy cars tear their fuel cells open and hot exhaust would ignite it but 3 gallon bucket of water dampened it and the second and third bucket got it out.
In reply to frenchyd :
Washer fluid definitely will burn. I have done it.
Good for Indy regarding water, but the flammability of methanol mixtures, even at washer fluid concentrations, is why the SCCA banned its use.
the fustrating thing is the quality of the AEM kit, atrocious. The push to lock fittings are constantly popping off despite trimming fresh ends of the nylon tubing for them to bite each time. I have the flow meter. All it does is show you how grossly inconsistent the flow is each time the controller turns on. I get high and low alarms all the time. When I bench test the kit and plot the output, what should look like a smooth curve actually looks like a shot gun spray. I have posted this on every forum I frequent, do not tune for the spray without some form of failsafe.
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