In reply to Berck :
As for limited shifting the Rio uses 3rd on most tracks exclusively. When 3rd runs out to 95 and 2nd ends at 52 it's like driving a CVT with turbolag but no turbo.
In reply to Berck :
As for limited shifting the Rio uses 3rd on most tracks exclusively. When 3rd runs out to 95 and 2nd ends at 52 it's like driving a CVT with turbolag but no turbo.
Absolutely not. I had this "conversation" with myself over 10 years ago when I had a Mk5 GTI with DSG. Objectively better? Sure. But I eventually got bored of the DSG, returned to daily driven three pedal glory and never looked back. Never. Not once. Not even in stop and go traffic. Even my tow vehicle is a manual. They are engaging and enjoyable all the time. I'll be driving a stick shift as long as I'm physically able to.
bobzilla said:In reply to Berck :
As for limited shifting the Rio uses 3rd on most tracks exclusively. When 3rd runs out to 95 and 2nd ends at 52 it's like driving a CVT with turbolag but no turbo.
"All that turbo lag without the bothersome turbo power"...............I used to say this about my Courier pick up.
"Save the Manuals" indeed! Yet with all the positive input I've read here, why won't the greater world at large buy my wife's 2013 Elantra Coupe 6-speed? -Best theft deterrent one can ask for! Yet I'm fearful the non-enthusiasts are afraid to keep the clutch skills, or never learned them. My well-priced Ebay and Car.com ads don't get a whiff of interest- and the car only has 48K miles!
...maybe if it had more of a "sport" heritage....alas!
Better is so subjective. Sure modern transmissions are faster, but I still want a manual in my fun cars. My commute is conducive to fun cars now so my daily is a manual too. When I lived in the traffic crisis known as DFW I loved having an auto. It's all very situational and personal preference. Being able to disagree with anyone on this site and discuss it is getting really difficult.
ConiglioRampante said:In reply to cyow5 :
The real answer is to tow the karts with the Elise.*
(mic drop)
*said no one ever
There actually is a trailer hitch kit for the Elise. It is more marketed for track tires, but now I've got a fantastic idea...
ConiglioRampante said:"Fragility" of transmissions has been mentioned.
As another data point, VW clutches in their manual transmissions are among the first thing that the cognoscenti advise as an upgrade when tuning and/or going to a larger turbo because they just don't last.
Whereas the DQ381 (the DSG in my GTi) is from the Golf R and rated to handle up to 317 lb-ft of torque. The older DQ250 was rated for 295 lb-ft, which covered just about any stage 1 tune.
source: https://blog.fcpeuro.com/the-definitive-guide-to-the-dsg-transmission
What the heck? VW used to make their clutches out of granite.
My Golf had ~230k on the original clutch when I sold it. The tiny inside-out clutch because it was an 8v with an 020.
My Quantum had ~400k on the original clutch when I broke it down. Still a ton of material left. The clutch PEDAL wore out, but the clutch was fine...
Isn't there a cottage industry that sprung up just to replace the SMG in BMW's? I know there is for a Ferrari as well.
And I am confused by the comments that somehow saying a manual adds engagement to the driving experience is bunk when it does exactly that. You get everything an auto gives you plus the requirement that you pick the gears. Doesn't mean that driving an auto/DCT can't be engaging, but a manual adds a step that is fairly important. Nor does it always mean more fun, getting the timing and clutch wrong makes me wish for an auto at times.
My '15 RT 6M was a blast to drive, all the time. Even in stop and go driving. Just something about getting the shifts right that brought a smile. I guess pulling a paddle at the right time to narrowly avoid the rev limiter is fun too, but in my mind it isn't the same skill level. I've tried to drive a paddle shifted car like I would have a manual and it was less than satisfying (to me).
That said, while I have a T56 Magnum in my shop to go behind the 5.7 I plan to swap into my Duster, I still sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have gone for a 8HP70. So I am not anti-auto, nor do I think an auto/DCT can't be just as fun (in a different way). But in my case, an 8A would reduce the stress of road tripping the car since my wife isn't comfortable with a stick and would mean we could share driving duties and if I did something stupid she could get me to a medical facility. So it all comes down to what you want to do with the rig.
To each their own.
I'll just ask this question...
Name one race series that got better when they added flappy paddles.
In reply to racerfink :
Define better. And define flappy paddles?
WRC now requires a manual lever to shift the trans, they used to use an air operated shifter setup on the steering wheel/column. Still a sequential, though, no H gate. They moved from H pattern transmissions because sequentials were found to be worth seconds per km, when they normally fight to find tenths of a second per km. They were also a lot more reliable, very hard to miss a shift unlike an H pattern shifter.
Audi had prototype twin clutch transmissions in 1985 in the Audi S1 E2 for select drivers/events. You can tell them by the turbo not surging when upshifting. I understand that Porsche used the same trans in some 962s.
Is "better" more reliability? Is it lower costs? Is it more speed? Is it closer racing? Is it LESS close racing?
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:Being able to disagree with anyone on this site and discuss it is getting really difficult.
I disagree.
Feel free to discuss.
DSG's are a too different an animal to call and automatic as I see it. CVT's are just awful, why to these things even exist?
I've had a license for over 30 years and have never driven a car with a 'good' automatic. Newer computer controls have made them less bad, but drastically more expensive and less serviceable. (Sorry sir, we don't fix transmissions anymore, just replace it. $8,000 please). They always shift at the wrong time if driven hard, won't hold a gear through a corner etc.
Never worn out a clutch and I spend an hour and a half in traffic everyday. I've taken out automatics and replaced them with manuals. Bought a used car with an automatic a few years ago as a winter beater, it had 100k on it. Trans failed at 120K, lost 3rd and 4th on the way to work. It's the first auto I've owned in nearly 20 years...and hopefully the last!
Pete. (l33t FS) said:ConiglioRampante said:"Fragility" of transmissions has been mentioned.
As another data point, VW clutches in their manual transmissions are among the first thing that the cognoscenti advise as an upgrade when tuning and/or going to a larger turbo because they just don't last.
Whereas the DQ381 (the DSG in my GTi) is from the Golf R and rated to handle up to 317 lb-ft of torque. The older DQ250 was rated for 295 lb-ft, which covered just about any stage 1 tune.
source: https://blog.fcpeuro.com/the-definitive-guide-to-the-dsg-transmission
What the heck? VW used to make their clutches out of granite.
My Golf had ~230k on the original clutch when I sold it. The tiny inside-out clutch because it was an 8v with an 020.
My Quantum had ~400k on the original clutch when I broke it down. Still a ton of material left. The clutch PEDAL wore out, but the clutch was fine...
I hear you.
The FCP Euro blog quoted below sums it up well, and it's a "general consensus" topic on the VW forums (vortex, golfmk7.com, etc.). https://blog.fcpeuro.com/dsg-vs.-manual-which-transmission-is-best-for-you
With all of its advantages, there are some downsides to the manual transmission. The biggest is that any 2.0t TSI GTI, starting with the Mk6 in 2010 and continuing all the way up to the current Mk7 and Mk7.5 GTI, are known to have a weak clutch from the factory. While it’s not really a problem on a stock car, if you modify your GTI with a performance ECU tune from a company like Unitronic, chances are the clutch will slip and need to be replaced sooner rather than later. Since a clutch is a wear item and everyone’s results will vary, it’s not really a hard and fast rule as to when or at what power level the clutch will slip, but it is a fact of manual modern GTI ownership.
Tom1200 said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:Being able to disagree with anyone on this site and discuss it is getting really difficult.
I disagree.
Feel free to discuss.
Look at the first few posts in this thread :). Tom you are able to disagree and discuss. I will admit at times I struggle with it. But there are some that cannot do it at all. If you disagree with some people they literally descend into name calling immediately.
And honestly some topics are more easily to differ than others. This one should've been super easy but some of the posts still went awry. I expect it on challenging things not manuals vs auto/DSG. Yes a DSG is better in almost every measure, but I still prefer a manual in many instances.
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
I couldn't help myself with the reply.......snark is my middle name......it was to good to pass up.
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:CVT's are just awful, why to these things even exist.
Becuase they work well in side by sides, snowmobiles and our Formula 500s.
They are especially good for autocross; as F500/600s have more power than traction in most parts of an autocross course the drivetrain loss is more than made up by always being in the powerband.
I bought a 2013 Honda Accord 5-speed manual and as lame as it was (170hp?) I loved it - sales car.
At 75,000 miles my wife asked me if I was sick of stick shift. Nope - love driving it and I did until 155,000 miles and I got a Silverado cause I got tired of wrestling hose reels into my back seat.
I don't know that CVTs are the worst. I've only got experience with the ones that come in rental cars, but I'll take a decent one over a slushbox anyway. Decent, in this case, means doing the thing a CVT is good at--staying at peak power when I put my foot down! The number of completely asinine versions that pretend to shift are like the worst of all things.
I've been surprised that no one has offered a CVT with proper manual control. I'd do this exactly like the propeller control on airplanes equipped with constant speed props. On such airplanes, there's a governor that maintains engine RPM as set by the prop lever. So if you set 2,400rpm, it maintains 2,400rpm as you add power by increasing the pitch of the prop. As you decrease power, it'll flatten the prop until it hits the low pitch stop, and then power will drop.
You could do a CVT exactly like this: a lever that ranges from min to max RPM. If set it at max, it'll rev up to max rpm once you're going fast enough for the lowest gear ratio to allow it, and then increase the gear ratio to let the engine rpm stay there until you either pull the lever back or stop. At "min" it'll pick some minimum cruise RPM that will provide high fuel economy without lugging the engine.
Instead, all the "manual" CVTs are completely stupid with flappy paddles and simulated gears.
In reply to Berck :
My F500 made a fan of CVTs.
I tell Mrs. DX that the Fit has a theft deterrent device with 6 speeds and a shifter..
Tom1200 said:This would probably be a good time to mention that the inner me thinks H pattern manuals are an abomination for race cars.
I started on motorcycles first and the inner me truly thinks the sequential shifting is far better for racing BUT the outer me thinks the H pattern box is better on the street because I can go from top gear to first in one motion without having to go down through every gear................this is handy when pulling up to red lights.
If anyone finds this illogical..............logic has no place in these decisions. LOL
Some folks down under agree with you.
Not cheap, but not horrifically priced buy car-mod standards. I kinda wish they offered one for a T-9.
I haven't read into the system that much, but I can imagine it wouldn't be terribly difficult to add a switch to the mechanism that would automatically cut the ignition, thus "lifting" the throttle and allowing for no-lift up-shifts.
I prefer driving manuals in every situation except stop and go traffic, though it does not bother me enough to DD an auto. At our house we have 5 stick shifts and two autos, both autos are in big vehicles that did not come with a manual option, and the 7 speed auto in our Merc R class is the best auto I have spent a lot of time with. Putting aside just being a personal preference, in the 150K miles we have put on the R I have had the fluid changed twice at around $600 each time, both of our highest mileage manual cars are still on original clutches and are pushing 300K miles. Just from a maintenance standpoint, in my experience, the stick shifts are much easier to live with. When everything goes EV none of this will make a difference with a DD but I fully expect to have a manual car in the garage until I can't drive one anymore. I am not on a race track 99% percent of the time so the performance advantage of a DSG or whatever, is not important to me in the least.
Tom1200 said:In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
I couldn't help myself with the reply.......snark is my middle name......it was to good to pass up.
Yes Tom you have your own personality and typically state your point of view clearly. I really like your thoughts on slow car fast. And as for snark back... EVs will win in the end :p.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
I used work for a company that would instrument shifters for that purpose.
We would use strain gauges and a 0-5v amp to provide the signal to the ECU for shift without lift function.
Most customers were using sequential transmissions (champ car, Toyota Atlantic), but a few were drag racing or a small number of H-pattern shifters (BMW). I think most were using Motec ECUs.
Drivers had to remember to keep their hand off the shifter unless they were shifting, otherwise a little to much pressure would cause the ecu to cut the ignition when not intended.
The GRM Staff really stirring the pot with this one!
Here's the thing: I like manuals a lot. But I also like GOOD automatics a lot too. There's nothing wrong with liking both. I want manuals to stick around. Same with GOOD automatics. CVT's... blech!
Some cars are flat out better with an automatic. My wife's Mazda CX-50 Turbo is one of them. That thing with a stick would probably be entertaining for a few minutes and then I'd get annoyed with it. The Mazda 6-speed auto is perfectly paired with that engine, and between Sport Mode and the flappy paddles, the trans does exactly what you tell it to do. There's no beneft to having a manual in that car.
Furthermore... Both my project vehicles (a 1979 Trans Am and a 1979 Power Wagon) have a... GASP!!!... 3-speed automatic. Both of them also do what they are told and don't ruin the driving experience. The Trans Am has a converter in it, while the truck has been adjusted to shift when it's supposed to. Driving old stuff that sometimes doesn't run like you want it to might be a giant PITA with a stick. And the truck's factory 4-speed manual with the granny 1st gear is less than fun to drive compared to instant power with the automatic. When I upgrade the trans in the Trans Am, it's going to get a 4-speed automatic. An extra overdrive gear would be nice for the highway.
But my Kia... the dry clutch DCT that comes with those has been proven to be somewhat problematic. I'd rather row my own with that one. Although, driving it in traffic is less than fun. I kinda wish that was an automatic too jut not the one it comes with. 
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