Is motorsports in trouble at it's most accessible level?

In reply to Floating Doc :

Guess I'm just spoiled then.  I won't spend 10 hours of my time away from my family for a 45 second course.

Toyman01 said:

Good news about the wife's meeting with the airport. They have a unused runway that is 200' x 4700' they would love us to use for no or little money.

Bad news about that, it was last paved in 1946. It might be a little rough.

We will still end up using it because of desperation. 

That sounds a lot like our Deland site.  The pavement there is truly atrocious.

In reply to bludroptop :

The base commanders aren't worried about liability from a bunch of cars running around on concrete.  They're worried about giving access to a secure facility to a bunch of people they don't know.  That's a non starter, Street Survival doesn't impact that at all.

Toyman01 said:

Good news about the wife's meeting with the airport. They have a unused runway that is 200' x 4700' they would love us to use for no or little money.

Bad news about that, it was last paved in 1946. It might be a little rough.

We will still end up using it because of desperation. 

Might be, or is? The club I ran with in college, Champaign County Sports Car Club, was running on concrete that to my knowledge was from the same era. Yes, it was rough, but nothing too bad--and we had a climate much harder on pavement than you do.

docwyte said:

In reply to Floating Doc :

Guess I'm just spoiled then.  I won't spend 10 hours of my time away from my family for a 45 second course.

You either think autocross is fun, or you don't.  It's fine either way.  If you're focused on seat time, clearly it sucks.  Even autocrossers don't argue that point.

Floating Doc said:

docwyte said:

While parking lots with trees etc aren't great for auto-x, I appreciate them a whole lot more than just a huge swath of concrete.

For me, I won't go do an auto-x where the site is so small that the course is ~40 seconds.  It's already a poor seat time/time spent equation and with a short course its even worse. 

I've done about 18 events in the one year that I've been competing. I've never seen a FTD over 45 or 50 seconds, usually in the high 30 second range. 

I'm okay with that, I'll take what I can get. 

I've seen a few courses like that at brooksville, but I think compromises have to be made between more runs vs less runs and a longer course. Some of the smaller clubs have had 45 to 50 second ftd courses before.

In reply to docwyte :

I understand your point but they allow access for civilians for countless reasons with far less vetting - heck Fleet Week I showed my driver's license at the main gate and without any further checkpoints I was standing on the flight deck of CVN-77.  

Cherry Point provides access  in cooperation with the Single Marine program. I'm suggesting we replicate that.

Edit:  I had to show license and proof of auto insurance, suggesting a liability component.

NickD said:

Meanwhile, in my oddball region, attendance is up every year from when I started, and we are turning down venues asking us to come run there because we already have a handful of really good sites. 

That's because you're in NY State.  And about 25 years ago car makers figured out how to beat or drastically slow rust.  Previous generations had no cars to race.  :-)

As long as there are cars and places to legally race about, motorsports shan't die. Give car folk a few years, we'll figure out what to do with CUVs. 

Duke said:

Reduced new car sales is a drop in the bucket of trouble autocross is facing.

Rapid extinction of available venues is Number One on the hit parade, followed closely by increasing insurance costs.

The number one issue in autox is not event sites. It's welcoming attitudes and keeping people hooked with community. 

If everyone focused on making sure newbies had a great time and engaged with them. Overall attendance numbers would rise.

Event sites do hurt. But if the community and people are there the club will do well even if the sites are not optimal. 

Spokes sports car Club in Austin is proof of this. Much smaller pool of population to pull from compared to DFW and Houston and their events are not that much smaller. 

There's a nearly-dead mall in the small Maryland town where I live.  Last time I was in there fully 1/4 of the store fronts were vacant, and one of the others had what appeared to be a garage sale taking place.  The Sears just closed its doors.  

This mall parking lot every year, twice a year, hosts a huge car show- like 200-300 cars.  So they're already amenable to that crowd.  It's mostly huge open spaces too- it was built in the 70's/80's.  I wonder if they'd be open to an autocross...

In reply to spacecadet :

People is not our problem. When we can do a Charleston event, we have to cap the numbers or we will have 250 cars show up. Our last Charleston venue was so small we had to cap the total at 50. When your event venues are 2-3 hours away, then numbers are no longer a problem. 

Street Survival is a good "in" with a lot of venues. We will hold one event at a local school this year. SS on Saturday, autocross on Sunday. Without Street Survival, the autocross wouldn't happen.

According to the wife, the runway we will be using, is 72 year old asphalt. It will be like a cheese grater on tires. It will probably end up being our primary venue which means I'll be shopping for something harder for tires. 

spacecadet said:

The number one issue in autox is not event sites. It's welcoming attitudes and keeping people hooked with community. 

If everyone focused on making sure newbies had a great time and engaged with them. Overall attendance numbers would rise.

Event sites do hurt. But if the community and people are there the club will do well even if the sites are not optimal. 

Spokes sports car Club in Austin is proof of this. Much smaller pool of population to pull from compared to DFW and Houston and their events are not that much smaller. 

I would tend to agree with this.

CDC (DC area club) has garbage sites and the competition is not great.  But they have very welcoming attitudes, nobody is serious and they are all there to have fun.  They have a pretty decent attendance.  

They are actually a good compliment to the local SCCA regions.  People who want more competition and better courses tend to move on to run WDCR, AI, etc.

The downside is some potential participants are lost because the first event they do is on a postage stamp and they think "I'm never autocrossing because I never want to do that again."

Toyman01 said:

In reply to spacecadet :

People is not our problem. When we can do a Charleston event, we have to cap the numbers or we will have 250 car show up. Our last Charleston venue was so small we had to cap the total at 50. When your event venues are 2-3 hours away, then numbers are no longer a problem. 

What's your rookie retention from event to event?what percentage of people make every event of the year? Just because a region has healthy attendance doesnt mean everything is fine. 

A recession can destroy those numbers either way. But it will really hurt if all/ the majority of your people are 50% or less annual event attendance folks. 

Sure, We're losing sites. But engagement of people has to be front and center. 

#Gridlife sells out midwest festival and  south festival track stuff each year. They still focus on driver experience and make sure every person has the best time possible. Because it can all fall apart if people aren't having a good time and being properly engaged. Gridlife year over year retention is something ridiculous in the 80%+ range across all of their events. 

I don't think it is one single thing that is hurting autocross.

Venues are probably the biggest factor. My local region has lost several prime sites over the years do to redevelopment or greedy fees. New lots don't have clean asphalt; too many curbs and 'green' areas.

Cost ratio of $/seat time. I'm not interested in dedicating an entire day to standing in a hot parking lot to get maybe 5 total minutes of seat time for $30-40. Admittedly autocross to me is a more casual thing than serious competition so it is easy for me to bow out because of this. I know a lot of people that are not the least bit bothered because autocross is their entire motorsports universe.

Welcoming feeling. I remember back in the 1980s when I first competed and was completely clueless I got chastised by one of the 'serious' autocrossers for putting my car in his class when it technically wasn't legal. Instead of teaching me where I should be he gave me a mild dressing-down for my ignorance. I was the slowest car in the class that day. I hope those people aren't still the norm. SCCA's ponderous rule book is also a turn-off to new arrivals.

Popularity. My local region's events certainly aren't suffering for attendance. This means you can't sign up on a whim but have to plan months in advance and 'buy' a car number for the season. Again, I'm not that serious of a competitor. Easier for me to say 'nah' and do something else.

I'm sure the SCCA doesn't miss me or folks like me when events are subscribe to max capacity with a waiting list. Only the first issue really becomes a problem for them. Growth may as well not even be desired when you have full grids and few events and can't find places to hold any more.

Track days have been much more accessible, far better $/seat time, more welcoming and have no rule book militants until you start running TT. Downsides are total cost (even with a far better ratio) and distance to events.

In reply to spacecadet :

We have a May event scheduled. We don't know where it's going to be because the one venue we have isn't available. Retention of novices is a little difficult when you don't have venues scheduled for the entire year because there aren't any. Without a venue there is no autocross so...

We are also having to run back to back events on the same weekend to get 9-10 points events into the calender. That turns a $40 day of playing with cars into a $250 weekend including hotel. There are a lot of people that aren't willing to spend that on a autocross when a track event is not much more. 

So, possibly in your area, the people running the events are chasing off the novices. In our area it's the inability to get sites where the guys playing with cars actually live. 

Toyman01 said:

In reply to spacecadet :

We have a May event scheduled. We don't know where it's going to be because the one venue we have isn't available. Retention of novices is a little difficult when you don't have venues scheduled for the entire year because there aren't any. Without a venue there is no autocross so...

We are also having to run back to back events on the same weekend to get 9-10 points events into the calender. That turns a $40 day of playing with cars into a $250 weekend including hotel. There are a lot of people that aren't willing to spend that on a autocross when a track event is not much more. 

So, possibly in your area, the people running the events are chasing off the novices. In our area it's the inability to get sites where the guys playing with cars actually live. 

i understand your issues and sites are a problem. We are in the process of losing Texas A&M's site and we have lost 1 site in houston. 

The issue with experience doesnt lie in running people off as much as it's an issue of hooking people. I'm glad to hear that's not your issue it sounds like. 

Toyman01 said:

RevRico said:

 

Part of that is the SCCA though and the way the regions are divided up though. Even if we found a good spot nearby, because the region is "based"or whatever where it is we couldn't use it. At least that's how it was explained to me. 

This is the disgusting rotten underbelly of the SCCA. Good 'ol boy politics at it's worst. 

Sucks that that is a problem.  Around here several regions have run technically out of region with permission or hosting co-run events.    Philly ran rallycrosses in BMR territory until BMR started their own program to utilize the site.  BMR's new program then ran an event technically in Susquehanna region territory.  NEPA has autocrossed in Philly territory, many years ago Philly autocrossed in NEPA territory and in WDCR territory.  NNJR has a co-event with NEPA once a year in PA.  Susq lost both their primary sites in the last 2 years, so they are also having several co-events with NEPA 1.5-2 hrs away to supplement their remaining small sites and create a reasonable 8-event points season for their members that want to compete that way. It doesn't have to be stupid good ol' boy politics. 

You just need permission from whatever region technically covers that area.  If they aren't already using the site, then it's probably because they have no autocross program or the site is far from where most of THEIR members live - so why would they care if your region runs there instead?

My region lost a couple of sites over the years but we recently got one back and now have added another so it's probably a wash.  We've gotten better about retaining our novices and making people feel welcome.  But costs are going up, we pay $13 per driver to the SCCA, each venue we rent is $800-$1200 and we have to maintain/replace equipment. 

A couple of my friends recently went to the SCCA conference in Ohio and the discussion of "how do we increase interest in the sport" came us as it always does.  My .02 is that with media being as pervasive as it is (we) need to make it more interesting, SCCA doesn't advertise or encourage spectatorship but people have proven they will pay $5 to watch ANYTHING so why don't we embrace that?  More interesting announcers, big leaderboard displays, live feeds from inside the cars, even (gasp) getting it on TV.  The Optima Street Car guys do it, so there is some level of audience out there.  Connecting to it, building it, encouraging it is all key.

Then if you get some actual money into the sport, sites can be built and dedicated to the use of driving around cones.  Most cities of greater than 100,000 should be able to dedicate 20 acres to motorsports/street survival/festivals/farmers markets/whatever.  So sell the city on the positive aspects of such an investment.

Double the entry fee and pay someone else to watch cones. Lack of seat time doesn't bother me if I can spend the rest of my day however I want. The low cost of autocross/rallycross is directly related to the seat time and I like it that way. More track time equals more wear and tear on the car and more money. The primary thing that keeps me from coming back is having to pay an entry fee AND work the course.

My $.02.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong and cone watching isn't mandatory (for SCCA events).

I attended my first autocross ever on April 1st, 2018. I think that would make me an experienced novice after 18 events.

I've raced with the Martin sports car club, SCCA, and FAST. My last event was fun runs with the local chapter of Porsche club of America.

I've made new friends, and found everyone to be very welcoming. My car wasn't legal for my class, but since I was new (and slow), nobody cared. 

I'm looking forward eagerly to my next year in my newly purchased ES legal miata.

My issue is that the 'local' auto-x most used course is over 2.5 hours away, qnd a few are further. As much as I love driving around cones, waking up at 4:30 so I can eat, drive, setup, drop cones, and maybe run 3 times on a soso course before picking them back up is not workable. I miss the sport but cant really justify it. 

Lately some friends and I have done some ad-hoc autox after getting parking lot permission, but seems a shame its just a few people. Maybe a 2nd autox org is warranted?

I must say that when autox and import drags started in my old area, street racing nearly evaporated. Having a safe legal outlet, that doesnt chase away the noobs, ricers and rednecks is a real benefit, no matter your perception of racing. 

Don’t leave out simulators. With a good wheel, the right game, and seat time, I’m putting in better lap times and not dying, for a grand sum of less than $1,000. There’s no way to do that in the real life. 

I bought a subie crosstrek, technically a CUV, but I bought it because it is truly a lifted car, and not a small SUV. It’s awd, has best ground clearance against the competition, and the best power output. It’s CVT is also good. 

Double the entry fee and pay someone else to watch cones.

That was a big issue for me. I autocrossed sporadically for about 2-3 years before I kind of got over it. I wasn't really interested in building a pure competition vehicle and my driving was good enough that i didn't care enough to improve it. Which is not to say im an amazing driver, but i tend to get up to 85% of my potential in anything pretty quickly, say 'good enough' and go do something else or continue on very very casually. The last time i went to K1 indoor cart races it said i was in the top 99.6% of the 8,000,000 who've tried, for example. That's usually where my brain goes 'that was easy' and saunters off whether i want it to or not. A big reason why autocross got old was that down here to stand in a sunny parking lot in the summer is nearly torture. I mean, my dad gets enough stuff cut out of his skin and me getting up near middle age that skin cancer is no joke. I don't spend that long in the sun on purpose, generally. Without any pressing internal desire to improve, that downside is enough to keep me away.

There were a few times i double entered because i'd rather pay money than stand in the sun for hours. I think at this point in my life that's even more true than it was then.  

I'm just happy to be racing something again. I drove my last racehorse in 1986.

I understand the appeal of track days, but my wife doesn't worry about me driving on an autocross course, and it's a lot cheaper. I'm also really enjoying the people.