Is internal combustion performance dead? Is sport compact performance dead? I lived through the late 70s / early 80s, when performance was declared dead, only to see a rebirth by the mid 80s.
The sport compact scene seems to have quited. Gone are the days of fart cans and "naawse". At least that crowd was good for a laugh. Could we be re-entering an era similar to the days when 240Z kits made by Byrake were the hot tickets. Remember those Mr. Suddard?
I was just thinking the same thing. Gas prices aside, the average horsepower of the average car is higher today than it has ever been before, and the 0-60 times are quicker as well.
In a world where almost every manufacturer makes a hum-drum appliance car with more HP than either my '90 911 or '98 M3... both of which were damn near supercars of '90s.... that statement seems a bit odd.
Maybe you meant 'taken for granted'?
I'm 43 so I also lived the late 70s/early 80's lack of real performance. Performance will never die it just has to reinvent itself when compelling changes happen.
In the late 70's emission standards and lack of sophisticated controls caused performance minded people to move to more show than go. IMSA fender flares, 50 series tires (I had a G50 polyglass sitting in shed until a few years ago), wild paint were how many people expressed themselves.
The FWD and turbo era then started in the mid to late 80's
The early 90's saw the popularity of British Touring Car racing which spawned the infamous fart exhausts, giant wings and cut springs we all know. High reving DOHC heads also became very popular during that time frame
By the mid to late 90's manufacturers had finally implemented engine management with enough resolution to get good performance with good emissions so power numbers climed yearly. The same time period saw tire aspect ratio's drop radiacally and the popularity of FAST and the FURIOUS movie.
From the late 90's to now the 0-60 numbers haven't changed much even though the power numbers continue to climb very high. The added weight of 20 airbags and crash zones have added 20% weight to models.
What's in store for 2010? I predict hp will stay the same or even drop a little but cars will maintain performance by getting smaller and lighter though use of more aluminum and composits. I also predict the return of the lower reving SOHC engines since they are more effecient by nature of fewer moving parts but be turbocharged to keep performance the same. Today's 16 year olds are kids of the mid 70's era parents. We might also see a resurgence of wild paint and stylized add ons as a way to express themselves.
RandyS wrote: Today's 16 year olds are kids of the mid 70's era parents. We might also see a resurgence of wild paint and stylized add ons as a way to express themselves.
Oh... dear... god...
Not the van craze again 
What I mean will new rules placed on automakers choke off performance and are the days of modifications waning.
Vehicles have become more powerful (and heavier), but the days of cheap mods are over. Performance can be purchased, for a price.
I long for the days of the easily modified Turbo Dodges and the 5.0 Mustang LX (no options). Sure, I can purchase a fast car, but so can any buffoon with a few thousand dollars for a down payment and halfway decent credit. However, if Congress gets its way with the automotive bailout, power figures are coming way down. It will all be about high mileage and ultra low emissions.
I want a $15,000 150 hp car weighing 2,400 lbs which an be street legally modified north or 300 hp. Too much emphasis is put on gadgetry. I want four wheels, an engine and a manual gearbox, no more.
I should have asked if performance will be soon dead.
RandyS, are you Randy Stocker of Miata fame?
Sorry about going off-topic.
Lucky you.
I still see ricer's all the time.
Moparman wrote: What I mean will new rules placed on automakers choke off performance and are the days of modifications waning. I should have asked if performance will be soon dead.
Short answer = NO I started driving in 1959. I have seen "the death of performance" several times, but it keeps returning to life. New rules just make it a little more challenging. I'm up to the challenge, are you?
Well in the late seventies and early eighties people were convinced that performance was dead, and for a couple of years it certainly seemed that way, but it didn't last. people thought that fuel injection couldn't be performanced tuned by anyone but factory engineers, and turbos were thought to be mysterious and exotic beyond comprehension. none of that lasted, gear heads had the will and the drive to push the limits and they always will. today I have a 4 cyl car that makes more power than alot of muscle cars from the glory days, and it only has simple mods and hacks so far, I haven't even gotten to megasquirt yet. And speaking of ms, when I started learning the ways of the wrench back in the late 80s, if you told me that in 15 or so years that you could build your own fuel injection system for less than a top end 4 bbl carb, I would have thought that you were on crack.
Also, think of all the 400 & 500 HP factory super cars that have been built in the past few years, I think that we will be seeing alot fewer of them going forward, but all that engineering knoledge properly applied, could be used to make some quite potent every day cars. I imagine a compact sedan that seats 4 adults comfortably with between 200 & 225 hp, getting a combined milage of 40+ mpg and with the use of light weight materials and new construction techniques weighs at most 2200 lbs while still meeting all crash regs. If that were built for 2010 it would cost almost as much as a super car, but hopefully (some) manufacturers all ready working on this, and by 2015 it could be an affordable reality. And as soon as they hit the street gear heads will start hacking them, before you know it there will be 500 hp super eco cars.
And don't worry, if the gobboment at some point bans construction of combustion powered cars, electric motors can be modded too.
Yes, I am Randy Stocker. Fame? Not so much (ask my wife or my accountant)
Compare real performance numbers of the average passenger cars today (Impala, Camry, Taurus, Accord, Passat) to similar cars 10, 20, 30 and 40 years ago.
How do those cars compare?
I like todays cars.
Moparman wrote: I want a $15,000 150 hp car weighing 2,400 lbs which an be street legally modified north or 300 hp. Too much emphasis is put on gadgetry. I want four wheels, an engine and a manual gearbox, no more.
We are in the minority. While looking for a new car I test drove a Yaris 5 door (thinking it may be a poor mans MINI Cooper @ 2200 lbs and mods to 130 hp, it wasn't) and it isn't even offered with a stick.
Product Managers authorize what they think will sell the most to typical consumers.
As long as it's legal to buy used cars performance will be alive and kicking.
Not much to add to the well-considered responses. While we deal with this recession thing, the new vehicle performance options are likeley to dimminish, and aftermarket suppliers will die. Those things are natural, and not unlike losing fat when you diet. What concerns me is the fate of the car manufacturers and even more - the race venues. Both are very hard to come by. I don't want to wake up in several years and find the market dominated by the Chinese and Koreans, and 3/4 of our race venues shuttered.
RandyS wrote: Product Managers authorize what they think will sell the most to typical consumers.
ding ding ding
Moparman wrote: I want a $15,000 150 hp car weighing 2,400 lbs which an be street legally modified north or 300 hp. Too much emphasis is put on gadgetry. I want four wheels, an engine and a manual gearbox, no more.
Has such a beast ever existed? That's a pretty low price for a car with that much potential. If you're going to go backwards in time, don't forget to take inflation into account. A 1990 Miata cost the same as the current 2008 one does.
Keith wrote:Moparman wrote: I want a $15,000 150 hp car weighing 2,400 lbs which an be street legally modified north or 300 hp. Too much emphasis is put on gadgetry. I want four wheels, an engine and a manual gearbox, no more.Has such a beast ever existed? That's a pretty low price for a car with that much potential. If you're going to go backwards in time, don't forget to take inflation into account. A 1990 Miata cost the same as the current 2008 one does.
I think you could get very close with some of the cars available now. take my Focus as an example
Sticker price new in 2001 = $16,615.00 (I paid $14,000)
Weight = 2700# (stripped out for Spec Focus race car = 2475#)
Power = 135 Crank HP stock ( Mine is at 223 WHP with the supercharger. A friend with identical setup and more agressive tuning is at 259 WHP)
Best part is that the car is totally street legal, in fact would be legal in CA because all parts have CARB numbers. Using the same motor with a turbo it is easy to get 300 WHP and still be legal in most states.
I don't see it going away. I'm excited for electricity to come into play. I'll bet the Volt, while an economy car, will be pretty well-endowed in the giddy-up department (for what it is). Once we start seeing performance electric cars (stupid Tesla and going out of business), we will usher in an entirely new era of performance.
For now, with Ford, for example, making 5 different levels of Mustang ranging from 240 hp (V-6) for under 20,000 to 550 hp in the GT-500 KR (still under 80,000) I don't think we have much to worry about.
confuZion3 wrote: Once we start seeing performance electric cars (stupid Tesla and going out of business), we will usher in an entirely new era of performance.
Tesla went out of business? Are you sure? I thought they secured $40 Million in funding in early November - have things changed since?
As for performance going away, I think a lot of performance variants of normal cars will go away as the current performance fad goes away for a while. Chrysler will drop their SRT line, Lexus will probably drop the IS-F after this model doesn't sell, Cadillac will scale back the V-series to just the CTS (is the STS the only other V-series right now - I think the XLR was dropped altogether) and possibly drop it altogether depending on sales and government car czar demands. The biggest threat though is government regulation. If they get too much into regulating CO2 emissions, it could completely kill high performance engines.
Bob
tesla is hurting, but not dead. Look at the 3.5L V6s in japanes mid size cars. those are hitting 280HP.
As for the 2400# car capable of 300hp, SRT4 swap into a first gen neon with the stage 3 kit, I still want to do that one
One problem that no one has addressed is what upcoming generations are going to find on the used car lots. When a lot of us were growing up there were CARS, interesting ones at that. Our kids are (going to be) faced with rows and rows of bloated SUVs and trucks.
Keith wrote: Has such a beast ever existed? That's a pretty low price for a car with that much potential. If you're going to go backwards in time, don't forget to take inflation into account. A 1990 Miata cost the same as the current 2008 one does.
A 1999 Neon ACR coupe probably set one back about $12,000, which is about $15000 today.
I had a 98 maxima. It had 190 HP, and I thought it was a fast car.
What I want is a four cylinder rear wheel drive stickshift with at least four seats, for 15,000.
mtn wrote: What I want is a four cylinder rear wheel drive stickshift with at least four seats, for 15,000.
There's gotta be some kind of BMW that fulfills those requirements. 2nd hand of course.
Or how about the new RWD Hyundai thing. Has that gone into production yet?
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