I recently read a MotorTrend comparison of the new half-ton pickup trucks from GM and Ford. The Lightning was right on the edge of 7,000 pounds empty while the GM achieved nearly 9,000 pounds. The Hummer EV is already over 10,000. All three are over 550 hp. Is it realistic to think we can push the average weight of commuter vehicles up over 3, 4, or even 5 tons?
When a modern Camaro weighs as much as my 95 9C1 squad car, nothing is off limits.
Appleseed said:When a modern Camaro weighs as much as my 95 9C1 squad car, nothing is off limits.
I had to do a double take when I read the track test of the new Mustang Dark Horse and read it's curb weight was 4k lbs. My 4 door [supercharged] CTS-V is 42xx lbs. I'd wager that you take the supercharger, heat exchanger, etc off my caddy and you're in a luxury sedan with a 6.2L V8 that weighs same or less as the "track focused" Mustang.
Also, for point of reference, my diesel F550 with a 12ft dump bed usually crosses the scales at 10k lbs on the nose with me and the wife in it when we leave the dump empty.
As I often ask, what ever happened to downsizing?
My 79 SKlasse is 4000 curb weight. A new SKlasse is 4400. That's not too bad for 45 years.
Another data point:
My 1972 Lotus Elan weighs 1550 lbs.
The 2024 Lotus Emira weighs twice as much, 3212 lbs, despite having an aluminum chassis and fiberglass body.
What happened to simplify and add lightness?
Edit: But I still really want an Emira. 
Colin Chapman is dead.
DaewooOfDeath said:I recently read a MotorTrend comparison of the new half-ton pickup trucks from GM and Ford. The Lightning was right on the edge of 7,000 pounds empty while the GM achieved nearly 9,000 pounds. The Hummer EV is already over 10,000. All three are over 550 hp. Is it realistic to think we can push the average weight of commuter vehicles up over 3, 4, or even 5 tons?
That Hummer is scary. If you're old enough to remember the '80s and early to mid '90s, then you remember the fervor over banning "bullet-bikes" or "crotch rockets". Part of it was that their performance envelope was far above and beyond anything that had been seen. Fast forward to today and we are pushing SUV's to inattentive soccer moms and dads with nearly that same performance envelope (acceleration anyway) but a 5 ton weight. Which is a bigger danger to society? Freedom is great but it can't be fully unbounded. This is nuts. I don't want those in my neighborhood.
Computer weight adds up!
A 401 CJ said:DaewooOfDeath said:I recently read a MotorTrend comparison of the new half-ton pickup trucks from GM and Ford. The Lightning was right on the edge of 7,000 pounds empty while the GM achieved nearly 9,000 pounds. The Hummer EV is already over 10,000. All three are over 550 hp. Is it realistic to think we can push the average weight of commuter vehicles up over 3, 4, or even 5 tons?
That Hummer is scary. If you're old enough to remember the '80s and early to mid '90s, then you remember the fervor over banning "bullet-bikes" or "crotch rockets". Part of it was that their performance envelope was far above and beyond anything that had been seen. Fast forward to today and we are pushing SUV's to inattentive soccer moms and dads with nearly that same performance envelope (acceleration anyway) but a 5 ton weight. Which is a bigger danger to society? Freedom is great but it can't be fully unbounded. This is nuts. I don't want those in my neighborhood.
It really does seem like EV profits are most likely to be found in the 3 plus ton, 500 plus horsepower, $100,000 truck and SUV market. Tesla is a partial exception, but those are heavy and high powered as well.
I was just thinking of this because everyone drives Kei cars here. It's amazing how much less intimidating it is to be a pedestrian, and how much more comfortable I feel driving something like a Miata in traffic when the stuff that's potentially going to hit me has 64 horsepower and weighs 1800 lbs. Of course practically none of those safer and more energy efficient cars would be legal for sale in the US.
The article even mentioned this. One of the reasons the Chevy weighs 9k pounds is because that makes it easier to pass fuel efficiency standards. The US system seems to reward vehicles for being huge, heavy, and unsafe to everyone else while punishing vehicles if they can't turn a pedestrial into meat flavored jam in under 4 seconds.
We've talked before about how high performance is basically a side effect of long range EVs. Our boring little Model 3 isn't a 0-60 sprinter by design, it's that way because it has efficient motors and a big battery that can deliver a massive slug of power. Interestingly, it also weighs right about the same as our E39 M5 - which was known for being heavier than BMW engineers would have preferred.
I do share the concern about average vehicles getting heavier, mostly because their drivers have no idea. Ask someone what they think their car weighs, they'll probably come up with a ton. In reality, it's closer to twice that. Some of that is due to increased structure for crash safety. Some is due to more efficient ICE engines making weight less of a penalty. In the truck world, it's due to ludicrous capabilities. In the EV world, it's often due to a huge battery because customers think they need to be able to drive 500 miles between charges. But no matter the reason, I'd prefer it if drivers knew and drove accordingly. I drive my 7700 lb pickup as if it weighs 7700 lbs, with acceleration profiles and braking distances to match. Makes me a bit slower through traffic, though.
There's a bridge in town with a 2 ton limit. Most pickup truck drivers don't think twice about using it when there are some Camaros that are too heavy.
we're gonna be spending a lot more on fixing roads
I drive a classic Mini, so right out of the gate I'm biased! But I agree that smaller and lighter has benefits far beyond just fuel economy.....it takes less "stuff" to make one, they are easier on the roads (I was going to say environment, but I don't want to cloud the issue) and so on.
I also drive an Audi Allroad - in this iteration it has a 250hp 4 cyl engine, weighs 3800lbs, has all wheel drive and routinely gets the same or better fuel mileage as my Mini, pollutes the air far less and includes all manner of safety and passenger comforts the Mini can only dream of.
So I get it, modern cars are truly amazing pieces of kit, but I like the lightweight tiny Mini and prefer it for almost all my driving situations.
j_tso said:we're gonna be spending a lot more on fixing roads
Unfortunately, I fear we're going to continue to be unwilling to spend the massive amounts required to maintain our infrastructure, and so we're going to have a lot more bad roads, collapsing bridges, and the like.
I am curious if the trend for passenger vehicles with sub-50 series tires will continue as roads deteriorate. One seemingly easy way to get a better ride quality is to drive around on 70-series tires!
Another factor is modern tire design. A manufacturer can point at the performance results and say "look, our 'sports car' can stop and corner really well.' Yes, and the tires are the user-saddled band-aid hiding the unmentioned 4,000 - 7,000 lb weight.
I've run across an article or 2 that revealed some concern about parking garages. If it was built with the average car weighing 3500 lbs and now they weigh 5000+ with many suv's over 6,000-7,000 it adds up fast.
BoulderG said:j_tso said:we're gonna be spending a lot more on fixing roads
Unfortunately, I fear we're going to continue to be unwilling to spend the massive amounts required to maintain our infrastructure, and so we're going to have a lot more bad roads, collapsing bridges, and the like.
I am curious if the trend for passenger vehicles with sub-50 series tires will continue as roads deteriorate. One seemingly easy way to get a better ride quality is to drive around on 70-series tires!
I know there is/was much discussion from EV owners about being taxed to support road repairs, since they avoid paying it at the pump.
In reply to kb58 :
Yes, Colorado has two extra taxes on BEVs. The first is to replace the gas tax, equivalent to about 10k miles in a 30 mph car. The second is new this year and is specified as a road tax. I'm good with supporting infrastructure.
But it's not passenger vehicles that do the road damage. It's 40 ton semis. The increase in road damage going from 3500 to 5000 lbs is negligible.
It ain't the 40 ton semis tearing up all the suburban and urban roads near where most people live. 9500 lbs launched to 60 in 3 seconds is a damn ballistic weapon. Imagine an impaired driver mixing up the pedals in the parking lot.
Because our household drives a MINI, an xB, an ND Miata and a Fiat 500 most of the time, we think my 4800# Canyon is huge.......until a full size pickup pulls up beside us.....
I'm reminded of a discussion a friend and I were having about how the death of autocross will be from loss of venues and his point was "Tires continue to get stickier, vehicles continue to get heavier, and now you have EVs with massive instant torque. What do you think that does to parking lot pavement?"
Back in the day, I had a wild idea to swap an STI AWD drivetrain into a 73 Ford Maverick. Everyone said I was nuts for putting a small engine in a "heavy old car," until I pointed out that the Mav was 200 lbs lighter than the Impreza.
My 19-foot-long 66 Bonneville is about the same weight as an E46
The weight of EVs is my main issue with them. I just don't want anytning that heavy only daily commute.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:Back in the day, I had a wild idea to swap an STI AWD drivetrain into a 73 Ford Maverick. Everyone said I was nuts for putting a small engine in a "heavy old car," until I pointed out that the Mav was 200 lbs lighter than the Impreza.
My 19-foot-long 66 Bonneville is about the same weight as an E46
Ever see Uncle Tony's "Bottle Rocket"? Try guessing its weight. Most people have no idea just how heavy modern cars have become.
Hint: you may want to see a scale sheet before racing this old barge for pinks.
My 78 Audi 5000 was a full sized car and weighed about 2500lbs all in.
My 2009 MINI Clubman weighed almost 3K!
I'd be OK with going back to smaller wheels and higher aspect ratio tires......
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