Is there a solution for gas with 10% ethonal?

billy3esq wrote:

digdug18 wrote: Anybody know if I can just goto the airport and buy aviation fuel, and how much it would be for a gallon of it?

Yes, and anywhere from $4-$7. The airport near me is around $4.30-$4.50 self serve the last few times I was out there.

Just remember it IS leaded.

digdug18 wrote: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/sef-94-video.html?lnum=17098277 That is a video link from vpracing fuels talking about their gas, and about e10 and what it IS doing to small engines. It is a promotional video, but still tells you the facts. For those of your that don't believe that there is a problem...EH! Andrew

Uh, if you are that convinced, why are you asking opinions?

I'll watch the video, but looking at it w/o sound, I see no data, see no dyno runs, no resulting damage- just a spoken, anecdotal, story... It will be interesting to hear what he says.

Also, avgas is not good for your car- the lead will basically force the O2 sensor to fail as well as the catalysts. Seems as if that's a LOT more expensive failure than what E10 will do to your stuff. It is ilegal to run on the road, but nobody will be hunting you down.

Still, it IS your money, do what you feel is the right thing to do.

Eric

Eric, I'm looking for straight gas for my lawnmowers, weed whackers, chainsaws, and occasionally 2 stroke bikes. The places where the e10 really kills.

Andrew

The SEF94 from vp racing, starts at $42.50 for 5 gallons, and goes down based on how much you buy. I'm going to try some and see how it goes, it's cheaper then paying $100 for a new carb for a chainsaw every couple of months. I don't use that much gas, and when I do I can get a price break on it.

Andrew

Just watched the video.... all I can say is that, well, I'm not going to say anything....

Go for it, whatever you want to do.

I'll stick with the cheap stuff coming out of my pumps, as I have for years, without problems. Starts, runs, even at 10 F to blow my driveway. Took 6-12 month fuel (some was left in the tank from last winter), started, ran, cleaned my driveway without issue. We have E10 here in SE MI. Lawnmower- same fuel tank, same crap, changed oil once in 12 years, still fires first time. Weed eater- fuel is at lest 6 years old, I use it so infrequently... still runs.

YMMV.

Lately, I have started to date my gas cans. I put a piece of duct tape on them and write the date that I filled them, crossing out the last date. They also get stabil at that time. After 6 months, I pour whatever's left into the Truck and refill the can. I am also draining my generators at 6 months and refilling with fresh. I start the generators once a month and let them run about a half hour or so. My other generator (not my new Honduh) has a B&S motor, is 5KW constant load and the gas in it had to be at least 4 years old. Probably closer to 5 or even 6. It had Stabil added back then. It still ran, but it didn't want to. Had to start it with a squirt of WD 40 down the carbie and keep the choke on a long time. Electric starter, or even that wouldn't have worked. After draining and filling, it starts up real nice now. I'm taking better care of it from here on out. Next up is an oil change. Going a week without electricity makes you look at things like that different.

iadr wrote: removes water traces from tank- doesn't go bad when parked a year or two

And who told you this? Post a trustworthy source that says ethanol removes water, or that it can sit for years and stay fresh

It's a miracle salve! It regrows your hair! Cures indigestion! Scours the sink! Tutors the kids!

The avgas I use(100LL) contains less than 1 1/2 GRAMS of "lead" per gallon.

I will add that when I was working in the motorcycle shop, carb rebuilds were our bread and butter, because gas around here has been going bad and wreaking havoc (on rubber bits and with deposits) with significantly more speed than is used to. I can't say whether that's ethanol or a change in additive packages, but I can say that until somebody figures out how to neutralize the negative side effects of modern fuel, this is a great time to be in small engine and carb repair.

JeepinMatt wrote:

iadr wrote: removes water traces from tank- doesn't go bad when parked a year or two

And who told you this? Post a trustworthy source that says ethanol removes water, or that it can sit for years and stay fresh It's a miracle salve! It regrows your hair! Cures indigestion! Scours the sink! Tutors the kids!

As I said earlier, "drigas" is alcohol. Alcohol absorbs the water. Ethanol is a form of alcohol. Modern gas, whether is is the lack of lead or the ethanol but it does not go bad like old gas did.

Drigas = Methanol

Shawn

Andrew,

I'm guessing you are in one of the non-emissions testing counties in PA. In the emission testing areas PA went to E10 year-round several years ago. Started with the "winter blend" then went to year round. I'm thinking it was 5 years ago or so.

I noticed a slight mileage loss in my Dakota back when I was driving it every day. I can't remember the exact amount, but I think it was around 1/2 to 1 MPG difference. My wife's Wrangler got a little better mileage. Still don't understand that one. I didn't see any difference in my Intrepid.

All my vintage stuff still runs. If the gas sits it seems to loose it's kick but it still burned. But that was when the Dak had to be parked for a year and a half. Mileage was really bad for that tankful...

-Rob

mad_machine wrote: can probably get it from a... small airfield..

120 Low Lead sounds fun

iceracer wrote:

JeepinMatt wrote:

iadr wrote: removes water traces from tank- doesn't go bad when parked a year or two

And who told you this? Post a trustworthy source that says ethanol removes water, or that it can sit for years and stay fresh It's a miracle salve! It regrows your hair! Cures indigestion! Scours the sink! Tutors the kids!

As I said earlier, "drigas" is alcohol. Alcohol absorbs the water. Ethanol is a form of alcohol. Modern gas, whether is is the lack of lead or the ethanol but it does not go bad like old gas did.

Wait a minute, are we agreeing or disagreeing? I said ethanol absorbs water, you said the same, I disagreed with the suggestion that ethanol makes fuel less susceptible to sucking in water. I don't know who's agreeing with who.

the only problem ive seen personally with the newer fuel was on a 300sl roadster that didnt get driven a lot and the entire fuel system was all kinds of stuck, every valve or pump needed to be completely cleaned and reassembled and the gas smelled really bad, though i honestly dont know exactly how old it was, but i dont beleive it was more than 2 years.

my cousin runs a marina and he told me stories of needing to service whole fuel systems as seals and gaskets degrade making lots of angry customers since E10 was mandated in MA.

Does anyone have access to a University library and can do a search in peer reviewed journals for the effects of ethanol fuels on engines and fuel system components? I'm not affiliated any more so I can't do the search.

Anecdotal evidence has little value. If you are not closely monitoring your variables, your results have little meaning.

Peer review is not perfect, but it would go a long way toward finding a real answer.

Ethanol is small amounts is good for your health.

digdug18 wrote: Pennsylvania is switching to only sell gas with 10% ethanol in it, it kills the fuel economy as well as eats fuel lines. In small engines it eats the whole carbs and on honda small engine motors voids the warranty. What can I do?

I don't know... ignore the hype?

I've been driving since 1995, have been filling up my mom's car since well before that, and I don't remember a time when fuel stations here did NOT say "Contains 10% Ethanol".

All those horrible things you speak of have somehow failed to happen.

MTBE did wreak havoc. Glad we didn't get that here. Ethanol isn't a problem.

JeepinMatt wrote: But you had the valve work done to enable to run on unleaded, right? Unchanged, it probably wouldn't be in such shape. The engine had to be designed for unleaded or adapted to it, like higher ethanol/gasoline blends. Leaded gas would be the natural choice for an engine, except for the environmental concerns.

The "unleaded fuel eats valves" was something invented by GM to explain why they were having valve problems with some of their engines, in the dark days of emissions controls that gave emissions controls a bad name. They were running the engines too hot and too lean and THAT was killing valves, not the unleaded fuel.

Leaded fuel is NOT the natural choice for an engine. The story of leaded fuel is an interesting one! Tetraethyl lead is a great octane enhancer, but it leaves horrible deposits everywhere. (Would you like changing your spark plugs every oil change, perform a valve job every 20-30k?)

One of the main hurdles of using leaded fuel was developing the right additive package to SCAVENGE the lead out. They were having problems with the lead leaving so many deposits that it would form a layer on the valve seat area, which would partially break off ("guttering") leading to a leak and a rapidly burnt valve... They figured it out sometime in the 50s.

JeepinMatt wrote: And who told you this? Post a trustworthy source that says ethanol removes water,

Know what "drygas" is? Ethanol.

The water won't mix with gasoline, but it will mix with ethanol, and this water/ethanol mix won't freeze at the lowest point in the fuel system, which in a 1980 RX-7 is the fuel pump, as I found out one winter.

Jeff wrote: Does anyone have access to a University library and can do a search in peer reviewed journals for the effects of ethanol fuels on engines and fuel system components? I'm not affiliated any more so I can't do the search. Anecdotal evidence has little value. If you are not closely monitoring your variables, your results have little meaning. Peer review is not perfect, but it would go a long way toward finding a real answer.

http://www.sae.org/

Should find plenty of papers of fuel stuff there. I'm sure you can find results there similar to what I've seen in the lab (but can't post).

BTW, alcohol is an emulsifier- so that it's is capable of mixing water and oil (gasoline)- the water doesn't dissapper, it gets absorbed into the fuel and passed through the system. Oddly, enough, a close cousin- vinegar, is not- that's why oil and vinegar separate. The emulsifier thing is why you commonly use wine and spirits in food.

One more follow up thing- you all should consider yourselves lucky. Down in Brazil, they run E100. And it can be as low as E95, with the remains being water.

Oddly enough, cars are still running.

E-

Eric, thanks for the link.

Ethanol's miscibility with hydrocarbons decreases as the chain length of the hydrocarbon increases. Acetic acid, having a larger polar moment due to the carboxylic acid, becomes less miscible at lower chain lengths than ethanol. I am not sure, but believe that ethanol and olive oil (as an example) are non miscible.