Is this what today's automotive "community" has come to?

MadScientistMatt wrote: Weird suspension / wheel / tire fads come and go. Remember when this was the thing to do to your car?

yup. This was my truck as a teenager. These stance guys are just figuring out how to do low.

People were mad at the minitruckers/lowriders/sport compacts/(insert custom era) too. Remember Lowrider Euro magazine (kind of a stance scene predecessor)? I got all kinds of crap from random people. "you can't even use it as a truck any more" "you can't haul stuff" blah blah blah. Rednecks in lifted trucks would yell random obscenities and derogatory racial things at me. I also learned about the pervasive reality of police profiling (lost track of how many times I was tailed/pulled over).

I loved cruising that thing, and I learned to turn a lot of wrenches on it, how to use a Sawzall, etc. Sure underneath it showed signs of a teenage hack job, but we all start somewhere.

I give props to anybody who loves cars, and even though I don't get into this "stance" scene, automotive enthusiasm is alive and well, and more than a few of those guys will end up trying to track their car, drag race their car, etc.

My personal feelings are, if it's a safety issue, then it's serious business. If somebody does something that is safe, but just non-standard, then I have no problems with it.

....Unless the driver himself is unsafe, particularly annoying or inconsiderate of his neighbors or people on the road. I think in the case of the culture we are looking at in this thread, it's the way the drivers of some of these cars conduct themselves on the streets that helps create the stereotype. It's the personalities of some of the people we may have met, who may have some of these cars, that we dislike, and after you see a few of them, it's easy to generalize that everyone is like this. Sometimes it's a local thing, and sometimes it's everywhere.

For example, in my local car forum, some people like to make fun of Hondas, and the eBay headlights/taillights, and shiny chrome or painted wheels, or big hood scoops, or anything that is slightly more gauche than functional. I didn't grow up around this scene though, I had no problems with it, I had some friends who did little cosmetic things to their cars, for fun, and they were very nice people in general. I didn't understand where all intense dislike came from. Apparently all of the people they grew up with, who did the same thing, weren't people they got along with. Maybe they were jealous of the attention, maybe those people were the jerks in their town (in some other town maybe it wasn't the Honda drivers, maybe it was the Volvo drivers, or Ford, or Chevy, or Dodge, or Alfa, or Nissan, or Subaru).

So, I forgot what my point was (must be getting old). But, I think it's important to think about why we dislike something, be open minded, be mature. We don't have to be interested in everything, but let's not allow that to cloud our judgement and develop into an irrational hatred.

"No thank you, it's not my particular area of interest. If you like it, that's okay. I'm more into trucks/muscle cars/British roadsters/custom hot rods/V8's/4-cylinders/FWD/RWD/AWD/Beamers...... It looks like you put a lot of time and effort into your car and your hobby. And I respect it. Nice meeting you and good luck." .... And then you go hang out with your own group peacefully, and everyone is happy. It's good to respect people that are different. It doesn't mean you have to pretend to be interested in what they do. Just treat people like people.

i think to myself, that child needs a role model.

Who is to say what is a safety issue?

My autocross car is really twitchy generally unstable coupled with the lack of airbags its probably not safe yet I drive it to and from events.

My truck due to tinted taillights is "unsafe" according to the state of PA

I commuted for two years in a caged car again not safe.

We've all been too lazy to change tires back at an autocross once according to Hoosier that is very dangerous

I have a couple stance wieners as friends they tend to crawl around 10 under the speed limit to avoid a twig or whatever going through their oil pan or just not drive the cars that often. I dont get it, I dont like it, but then they dont get why I race and yet we are able to get along because I can appreciated the work that went into their car as they can mine.

Live and let live, except for diesels with stacks those people should be executed in the town square.

BoneYard_Racing wrote: Who is to say what is a safety issue?

Really?

If your car spontaneously tears holes in oil pans, it is unsafe. If you grind the bolts down on your subframe for more clearance, it is unsafe. If your tires are stretched to the point of easily blowing out, it is unsafe. If your control arm geometry is so messed up that going over a bridge joint at highway speeds causes you to lose control, it is unsafe.

My personal opinion and feelings:

It is your car. You can do whatever your heart desires. If it gets to the point where it gets dangerous (the subframe bolts nearly sheered off from being too low), then yes, we have a problem.

What I have a problem with is the current "Stance. poke" crowd have no real automotive intelligence at all. I dealt with them when I worked at the Software Tuning place. They would call up and ask "can I throw this MASSIVE turbo on my VW?" When I respond with "No, there is more to it than that", instead of listening what they would need to swap or change, they would go online and bash me and my company and ignore everything I say and throw a massive turbo with massive injectors on an engine with stock pistons, stock con rods, mis-matched tuning and wonder why their motor blows in a week. Just pure automotive ignorance.

If you try to correct them, you become a "hater". Their automotive ignorance is passed around thru the forums and local car meets. They just don't want to take a second to read about suspension geometry. One of the biggest responses I got at the Software place was "Oh, my friend says it works and my friend says I don't need this or that". Ok, how does your friend know this? "Well, he just pulled it apart and it worked or he read online from Brotastic.com that it works." Your friend that works at Footlocker is not an engineer or engine builder or has anything to do with the automotive world. Do more research. No, because your car is lowered doesn't mean its a race car. All you did was alter the spring rates with new springs and slammed your car's ride height and there is little to no actual bump or rebound movement.

I am very fortunate that I surround myself with knowledgeable people (GRM Forums) and friends.

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: My personal opinion and feelings: It is your car. You can do whatever your heart desires. If it gets to the point where it gets dangerous (the subframe bolts nearly sheered off from being too low), then yes, we have a problem. What I have a problem with is the current "Stance. poke" crowd have no real automotive intelligence at all. I dealt with them when I worked at the Software Tuning place. They would call up and ask "can I throw this MASSIVE turbo on my VW?" When I respond with "No, there is more to it than that", instead of listening what they would need to swap or change, they would go online and bash me and my company and ignore everything I say and throw a massive turbo with massive injectors on an engine with stock pistons, stock con rods, mis-matched tuning and wonder why their motor blows in a week. Just pure automotive ignorance. If you try to correct them, you become a "hater". Their automotive ignorance is passed around thru the forums and local car meets. They just don't want to take a second to read about suspension geometry. One of the biggest responses I got at the Software place was "Oh, my friend says it works and my friend says I don't need this or that". Ok, how does your friend know this? "Well, he just pulled it apart and it worked or he read online from Brotastic.com that it works." Your friend that works at Footlocker is not an engineer or engine builder or has anything to do with the automotive world. Do more research. No, because your car is lowered doesn't mean its a race car. All you did was alter the spring rates with new springs and slammed your car's ride height and there is little to no actual bump or rebound movement. I am very fortunate that I surround myself with knowledgeable people (GRM Forums) and friends.

This is where my "hate" comes from.. So yes it may be a bit snobish but having a 50mm contact patch is not cool, i am very broad in my automotive tastes.

Jaynen wrote: Watch this. And see if it doesn't change your mind about Ken Block http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg2c7Pp7H0Q

Really cool video, lots of insight. Ken seems like a nice guy.

Yeah.... YouTube comments are as bad as reading any thread on the Forte Forums. Holy crap that place sucks...

Hey, it's not just the young guys.

You would be amazed the difficulty I have had trying to convince a number of clearly older Corvair guys that having camber gain in the rear suspension is a good thing!!

One of the guys even said that if it was such a good thing, why was he able to successfully race his Stinger for so many years without it. Well, I just had to say: If I was racing against you, I would FULLY support your decision.

I have suggested we setup a car for an AutoX that can be swapped between the two setting and do a real world comparison... they probably still wont' believe it.

Maroon92 wrote: 1. Ken Block is a SUPER nice guy. I sat across from him at a Rally America season ending banquet, and I had a short conversation in Spanish with his co-driver Alex Gelsomino, and he is even nicer! 2. If you think automotive enthusiast stupidity is limited to the hellaflush gang, you are sorely mistaken. This Thread, found on the oft lauded PelicanParts BBS forum for Porsche enthusiasts is filled with absolutely laughable "data". It is amazing how ill informed some "armchair mechanics" are. Such gems as the following certainly stick out to me as idiotic.

Some idiot said: I don't see how bigger rotors/more piston calipers will get you any more braking power, considering the engine is stock.

Another idiot said: I, too, can't see how improving the brakes on a NA 944 would make a difference, because IMHO these brakes are the best there is.

Oh really?

Idiot #1 said: You certainly do not NEED more braking power, you cannot use more braking power unless the car's engine is significantly modified, and by that I mean at least 30-40% increase in engine power.

King Moron said: 100mph is 100mph, but the 100 may be 120 for a 944t with the M030 pack, which I think is S4 brakes. The 100 for your 944 may be 95 from using torque to acelate the rotors.

Granted, the thread is a super zombie thread from 10 years ago, but it's my go-to thread when I need a good laugh.

Aaaaaaand ther you go...

THAT kinda talk like in the quotes from Maroon92 is why I hate the stance crowd more than how stupid their cars look (IMO). They know everything about performance stuff because they read it in a forum or some parts catalog.

Duke of Understeer and I were working in a race shop last year and he brought one of his buddies up there that was a stance-tard. One of the cars in the shop was a 996 GT3 Cup Car and the kid, of course flat-brimming w/ DC gear, proceeds to tell us that "It can go lower, bro." Straight faced and all.

Whats even better is when someone tries to rationalize how lower their car is for performance like the stance-tard reply about Tsukuba.

I beat a highly modded WRX STi that was all hellaflush in a bone stock CRX Si at an autox once.

He never came to another autox again.

xflowgolf wrote:

MadScientistMatt wrote: Weird suspension / wheel / tire fads come and go. Remember when this was the thing to do to your car?

yup. This was my truck as a teenager. These stance guys are just figuring out how to do low. People were mad at the minitruckers/lowriders/sport compacts/(insert custom era) too. Remember Lowrider Euro magazine (kind of a stance scene predecessor)? I got all kinds of crap from random people. "you can't even use it as a truck any more" "you can't haul stuff" blah blah blah. Rednecks in lifted trucks would yell random obscenities and derogatory racial things at me. I also learned about the pervasive reality of police profiling (lost track of how many times I was tailed/pulled over). I loved cruising that thing, and I learned to turn a lot of wrenches on it, how to use a Sawzall, etc. Sure underneath it showed signs of a teenage hack job, but we all start somewhere. I give props to anybody who loves cars, and even though I don't get into this "stance" scene, automotive enthusiasm is alive and well, and more than a few of those guys will end up trying to track their car, drag race their car, etc.

Funny thing is too when you lifted the hell out of those trucks they weren't able to be used like trucks should be used to tow anything anymore, I just imagine them in autozone saying something like:

"YEAH I NEED A 1.5 FOOT DROP HITCH FOR MY MUDDER BECAUSE I GOTTA HAUL THE WIFE'S HORSE TRAILER NOW"

yeah not gonna work so well.

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: My personal opinion and feelings: It is your car. You can do whatever your heart desires. If it gets to the point where it gets dangerous (the subframe bolts nearly sheered off from being too low), then yes, we have a problem. What I have a problem with is the current "Stance. poke" crowd have no real automotive intelligence at all. I dealt with them when I worked at the Software Tuning place. They would call up and ask "can I throw this MASSIVE turbo on my VW?" When I respond with "No, there is more to it than that", instead of listening what they would need to swap or change, they would go online and bash me and my company and ignore everything I say and throw a massive turbo with massive injectors on an engine with stock pistons, stock con rods, mis-matched tuning and wonder why their motor blows in a week. Just pure automotive ignorance. If you try to correct them, you become a "hater". Their automotive ignorance is passed around thru the forums and local car meets. They just don't want to take a second to read about suspension geometry. One of the biggest responses I got at the Software place was "Oh, my friend says it works and my friend says I don't need this or that". Ok, how does your friend know this? "Well, he just pulled it apart and it worked or he read online from Brotastic.com that it works." Your friend that works at Footlocker is not an engineer or engine builder or has anything to do with the automotive world. Do more research. No, because your car is lowered doesn't mean its a race car. All you did was alter the spring rates with new springs and slammed your car's ride height and there is little to no actual bump or rebound movement. I am very fortunate that I surround myself with knowledgeable people (GRM Forums) and friends.

Also, +1.

My exact thoughts. Do what you want to your car if its safe, but I reserve the right to point and laugh and make fun of you all I want. Atleast that doesn't slow traffic or cause accidents like some of these stance-tards cars do.

4cylndrfury wrote:

fidelity101 wrote:

Fit_Is_Slo (ceasarromero) wrote: Totally Bro

Makes me wanna give up on rally, sell all my gear and just be a snowboard bum or possibly knitting...

whew thats nice of you... thanks for volunteering to leave the automotive enthusiast world...we need less haters around. Let me know when you find nirvana where everyone else thinks and acts the same as you. Please take as many other hatertards as possible with you on your way out.

The Dalai Lama said he was busy :(

No nirvana today...

fidelity101 wrote: Funny thing is too when you lifted the hell out of those trucks they weren't able to be used like trucks should be used to tow anything anymore, I just imagine them in autozone saying something like: "YEAH I NEED A 1.5 FOOT DROP HITCH FOR MY MUDDER BECAUSE I GOTTA HAUL THE WIFE'S HORSE TRAILER NOW" yeah not gonna work so well.

So true.

We had a guy bring some "Super Swampers" mud tires to get balanced that he had bought off of craigslist for like $300 that were dry rotting and out of round. We couldn't get them roadforced worth a damn so the kid brought his truck in to get high speed balanced on the truck. Dude, sorry, you bought E36 M3ty mud tires off of CL high speed balancing them isn't going to magically make your tires round again. They are rolling squares.

logdog wrote: My mom told me that back in the early 70s she had a boyfriend that would stick flat rocks in the rear coil springs of his car to get the raked look that was so popular at the time. Just seemed an appropriate story for these kids today.

that's just stupid..

everyone knows that you can just jam a short chunk of 2X4 in there to get a couple of inches of lift..

Anti-stance wrote: Duke of Understeer and I were working in a race shop last year and he brought one of his buddies up there that was a stance-tard. One of the cars in the shop was a 996 GT3 Cup Car and the kid, of course flat-brimming w/ DC gear, proceeds to tell us that "It can go lower, bro." Straight faced and all.

I want to know how you kept a straight face when he said that.

My friends all looked at me funny when I told them why I upgraded the brakes on my Ti... so I could spend less time braking. Somehow that simple fact short circuited everything they knew about braking.

I've owned five Subarus over the years, including two WRX's and an STi... watching that video makes me want to hang myself. To each their own, but I just can't get into that. I'll appreciate the amount of work he put into it (if he actually did any of the work - it kinda looks like he just threw daddy's money into it), but that's about the best I can do...

mad_machine wrote:

Anti-stance wrote: Duke of Understeer and I were working in a race shop last year and he brought one of his buddies up there that was a stance-tard. One of the cars in the shop was a 996 GT3 Cup Car and the kid, of course flat-brimming w/ DC gear, proceeds to tell us that "It can go lower, bro." Straight faced and all.

I want to know how you kept a straight face when he said that. My friends all looked at me funny when I told them why I upgraded the brakes on my Ti... so I could spend less time braking. Somehow that simple fact short circuited everything they knew about braking.

you spend all that money on brakes and then try to use them as little as possible?

Ha ha ha! I watched it up until he introduced himself:

"Ok, pretty much, I'm Rob and this is my... Uhhh '05 WRX...."

I couldn't go much further than that. I just feel that it's really sad to see such a great car get so trashed like that. I like lowered cars, but not the "scene." He needs to be knowledged a bit....

-Hamid

This thread...

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: This thread...

novaderrik wrote:

logdog wrote: My mom told me that back in the early 70s she had a boyfriend that would stick flat rocks in the rear coil springs of his car to get the raked look that was so popular at the time. Just seemed an appropriate story for these kids today.

that's just stupid.. everyone knows that you can just jam a short chunk of 2X4 in there to get a couple of inches of lift..

From what I understand they didnt think too clearly in the 70s