http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/inside-gm-ive-been-working-in-parts-and-service-in-gm-dealers-since-1965/
good article and good comments.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/inside-gm-ive-been-working-in-parts-and-service-in-gm-dealers-since-1965/
good article and good comments.
Yep, a good read...
the last sentance is profound
Good article, so sad it's all true. I grew up in Detroit and every family I knew had a father that worked at one of the big three. I had two close friends. One father worked at GM the other at Ford. My Dad was an engineer at Chrysler. He was a staunch supporter of Chrysler always saying "you buy the products from where you work" and that's what we did. So I grew with rattles, things falling off, not starting when raining and other various complaints. One time we were going around a turn in a Chrysler wagon and the whole left front hub assembly snapped off and we watched it roll on down the street. My first car was a Dodge. In the few years of ownership I experienced things like the wipers would quit working (usually when raining), the inside blower quit (usually when the windsheild was fogged up), both exterior door handles broke off , the headlights would flicker on and off at night. It was a real treat when several of these things happened all at once. Like driving at night in the rain with no wipers, no lights and the window open with my head stuck out so I could see. You may ask, "why didn't you fix those things?" We tried and it might be good for a while or we were told they couldn't find the problem. Needless to say when I became an adult I switched to imports and simply couldn't believe they started and ran and everything worked. Like I said in the beginning what a sad story. I wish it wasn't true.
Same here. I was working in a GM service department doing little things like installing brand new dashboards in cars with 50 miles on them and tracking down intermittent wiring problems in the zone reps new Oldmobile when on a whim I bought a 150k mile wholesale '85 CRX DX for $500. It was my first experience with an imported car and I couldn't believe how well it ran and was generally made. At that point it was almost 10 years old and the interior still looked great-heck the fit and finish was better than some of the demo cars I was taking home every night.
When I visited the Honda dealer for some tune up parts they offered me a job in their service department and it was an eye opener seeing cars with 150k to 200k on them coming in for routine maintenance and never needing major repairs. I quickly got rid of my Ford and GM products and have not looked back. I did make the mistake of trying an F-150 a few years ago as a tow vehicle but the amount of monthly repairs it required pissed me off so bad that I'm NEVER going back to a domestic product again.
Maybe things have changed but I'm sure not going to put my money and time on the line again and take the chance. Sorry big three but I've been burned too many times.
What a load of bullcrap. If you guys want to believe that nonsense, go right ahead, but that won't make it true. The Vega was a failure, no doubt. It was, however, The Car of the Year, handled great and was styled like a miniature Ferrari 250 GTE. Unfortunately, it rusted and the sleeveless alloy block wasn't perfected. Toyotas and many Europeans of that era rusted just as bad, though. As to the Grand National, I bought one new, dialed up the boost and ran 12s for 135K with absolutely NO issues. I also owned a Fiero. I ran that car(and auto-X'ed it) to 146K , again with no issues, no fires ,no leaks. An innovative car that sold well for a while. It was finally updated into something special when GM cancelled it-no fault of the cars. I also own a '69 GMC big block truck that still starts on the first crank, burns no oil and is solid as a rock. We also have a 2001 Expedition that we use to tow the race car. It has 235K on the original engine, trans, etc and still runs great. GM had some poor designs(like the converted diesels), but they have also produced plenty of great cars and currently have category leading(or close to it) models in every segment. During the last couple decades, plenty of manufacturers produced lemons-Audi(90, 100), Toyota(hidden head gasket/sludge recalls), Porsche(exploding wc engines), BMW(recalled failed engines on the M3, 530-ask me how I know), Nissan(awful brakes), Acura(tire wear,leather that disintegrated in a year or two), etc, etc, etc. To single out the domestics(especially the current offerings) is misleading and inaccurate. As to the other post referring to anecdotal "evidence", without knowing any details, it doesn't mean much, nor does it prove anything. I find the comments regarding the HVAC particularly ironic, as the Japanese required years to produce one that worked with any efficiency. How about joining the rest of us in the present. Quality of most of the domestics is quite good and they have the stats to prove it. I am no domestic fanboi(although i have a couple newer domestics in the stable, I also have Italian, German and Japanese in the fleet), but fair is fair.
that's berkeleying retarded. of course he sees the broken ones. he's in parts and service!
consider this: a good friend of mine is an emergency room doctor. a few years ago my wife miscarried, and i was talking to Doc about it. when i mentioned that the miscarriage rate is reported at about 16% of all pregnancies, he said "Wow, i would've said a much higher number than that."
Duh, he's in the ER. He doesn't see healthy deliveries, that's what the OB/GYNs get. he sees the ones that go wrong.
Let's recap my ownership of Hondas over the last several years:
'88 civic 5-speed, bought in '91 at 32k. required a clutch at 62k because of a spring failure in the pressure plate. ignition module failed at 66k, left me stranded on the interstate. rusty as berkeley when i sold it in '98 at 140k.
'95 teg GSR 5-speed, bought in '97 at 31k. before the 4/50 warranty expired, i had it in the stealership for 5th-gear synchro replacement. they weren't surprised to see it.
'03 odyssey, bought new after poor experience at local olds dealer -- we had already inked a deal on an '02 silhouette, but the dealer tried to berkeley us on something. we liked the olds better. anyway, let's see, how about a transmission replacement at 44k, followed by an EGR valve failure at 60k, followed by the same EGR valve failure at 100k.
berkeley honda. like john rambo, they no indispensible.
Maybe people should just take better care of their cars?
All I can say is this: I rode in my buddy's 163,000 mile 2001 Isuzu Trooper today. It runs like new, no rattles or squeaks, if you didn't look at the odo you'd never know the mileage. Other than maintenance a pair of catalytic converters at 155K miles. Never been aligned, didn't need it. He has yanked small trees out of his yard and taken it on skiing trips to the Appalachians and the Rockies.
I have climbed into customer owned '05 and up Chrysler products of all types still under the 3/36 base warranty and I hear a cacophany of noises (Pacificas are the worst by far). The transmission shifts like a bag of ass. Check Engine lights for various and sundry reasons. 3.7 water pumps at 18K miles. 3.7 Liberties needing full valve jobs at 40K miles because the valves stick in the guides. 4.7 V8s that develop an insane oil craving at 90K miles. Don't even get me started on the Grand Cherokee window regulators (some customers have had as many as 6 replaced!)
Bluntly, between the UAW and excessive cost cutting American cars suck. The bar is now higher than it was mostly due to the influence of the Japanese imports. Anybody can build a car to rank #1 in initial quality, that's chimp simple, all it has to do is make someone happy for 6k miles. Hell, I could probably do it in my back yard. The hard part is building a car that still feels like quality 150K down the road, and even though a Taurus etc may still be mobile at that mileage it probably won't feel as well screwed together or have given as few problems as a comparable Camry.
And THAT is what's wrong with the American car industry.
AngryCorvair wrote: Let's recap my ownership of Hondas over the last several years: 1. '88 civic 5-speed, bought in '91 at 32k. required a clutch at 62k because of a spring failure in the pressure plate. ignition module failed at 66k, left me stranded on the interstate. rusty as berkeley when i sold it in '98 at 140k. 2. '95 teg GSR 5-speed, bought in '97 at 31k. before the 4/50 warranty expired, i had it in the stealership for 5th-gear synchro replacement. they weren't surprised to see it. 3. '03 odyssey, bought new after poor experience at local olds dealer -- we had already inked a deal on an '02 silhouette, but the dealer tried to berkeley us on something. we liked the olds better. anyway, let's see, how about a transmission replacement at 44k, followed by an EGR valve failure at 60k, followed by the same EGR valve failure at 100k. berkeley honda. like john rambo, they no indispensible.
That is the biggest fluke I've ever heard involving Hondas.
Here's why I buy 'em:
94 Civic DX coupe (bought new) sold @ 90,000 miles, nothing but a failed AC compressor replaced under warranty
99 Civic Si coupe (bought new) 89k HARD miles (auto-x, drag, a few track days) nothing wrong except for a driver's side window that comes of the track every other year.
92 Civic CX (bought w/ 112k, sold w/ 192k for the same price I paid for it) The AC compressor died, only other $$$ that went into it was basic tune-up parts--no failures
95 Civic DX hatch w/ d16z6 swap (bought w/ 251k on chassis, 98k on motor, currently @ 283k on chassis). Replaced the original starter. Bad clutch slave cylinder. Chasing down some electrical gremlins that are draining the battery. This was my least reliable Honda, but it's still pretty soild.
Wife's 99 CR-V EX (bought new, currently 184k) Door lock solenoids have been sketchy in the past year. Catalytic converter went @ 150k. Interior leak somewhere in the windshield/cowl (car is garaged at home and parking garaged @ work, so I don't care).
Needless to say, our next car purchases will be Honda (or Toyota). These companies earned their reputation for reliability IMHO. I don't care that htey were junk in the early 70's--they're pretty amazing now and meanwhile the Big 3 got too cocky.
I have never owned a daily driver that wasn't japanese. Not for lack of trying, but for being unable to find anything worthwhile to drive. From 1985-around 1997 the big three made terrible vehicles compared to what else was being offered at the time. Hell, I paid $200 for a 1980 toyota corolla. The carb'd 3tc still started in -30*C weather, and this car had had the SNOT beat out of it for the past who knows how many years. Also all of the abuse I put my turbo fireflys/sprints through (that were poorly maintained by their previous owners).
In comparison, my father bought a 1996 GMC 1/2 ton off the original owner (a good friend of his who owned a wireline business and needed a highway/idling truck) at 100,000kms. We put over 600,000kms on it and the motor never gave up. Along the way however, a cylinder head cracked for no reason, there was a big issue with carbon buildup in the heads, the tranny wasn't the happiest one in the world. It served its purpose and we more then got our money out of it.
The 1997 Sunflower we bought my mom was ok as an appliance (ok, not decent, not great). It rattled, stuff didn't work, was anemic, etc etc. The '02 Cavalier we moved her up to is better, but to this day the ABS module randomly cycles (cost over $2k and it still isn't fixed) and that thing warped rotors every month until finally my father bought the most expensive, DENSE front discs he could and I bedded them in. The '02 cavy gets retarded gas mileage with the ecotec in it, and while the ride is terrible the car is well worth the money paid.
Finally, my father recently bought a 2004 1/2 ton Z/71 4x4 quad cab GMC. Its slower then his '96 and gets worse gas mileage. The tranny clunks, and the transfer case whines. It has a vibration at speed that cannot be found (replaced all u-joints and driveshafts as well as being balanced). The truck has 4.10's for frig's sake and can barely get out of its own way. I feel he could have gotten a lot better truck for his $18K but mabye thats me?
What I am getting at is I have NEVER seen or had the problems with japanese vehicles that I have seen/had with domestics. While a LOT of domestic cars are great (especially after about 2002), it would be a hard sell to get me in a new one unless it was a killer deal (cobalt SS/T versus anything jap or euro).
gamby wrote:AngryCorvair wrote: Let's recap my ownership of Hondas over the last several years: 1. '88 civic 5-speed, bought in '91 at 32k. required a clutch at 62k because of a spring failure in the pressure plate. ignition module failed at 66k, left me stranded on the interstate. rusty as berkeley when i sold it in '98 at 140k. 2. '95 teg GSR 5-speed, bought in '97 at 31k. before the 4/50 warranty expired, i had it in the stealership for 5th-gear synchro replacement. they weren't surprised to see it. 3. '03 odyssey, bought new after poor experience at local olds dealer -- we had already inked a deal on an '02 silhouette, but the dealer tried to berkeley us on something. we liked the olds better. anyway, let's see, how about a transmission replacement at 44k, followed by an EGR valve failure at 60k, followed by the same EGR valve failure at 100k. berkeley honda. like john rambo, they no indispensible.That is the biggest fluke I've ever heard involving Hondas.
what's the fluke, that it happened once or that it happened to one person on three out of three vehicles? to me, it's not a fluke, it's a pattern. loose door panel trim? no biggie. driveline failures? biggie.
JeepinMatt wrote: Maybe people should just take better care of their cars
i must ask if that's directed at me and my three-for-three honda transmission failures?
Yeah, Honda transmission aren't very good and haven't been for years. Honda knows, they extended the warranty on the trans on my '04 Ody. Thankfully I didn't need it, though the fact that Honda still gets away with a 3/36 warranty will keep my Honda experiences to leases. Oh, and the leases are interesting, Honda's speedos and odometers read 10% high, sucked in a lease when you lost 10% of what you paid for. The class action settlement announced shortly after I turned the last Ody in explained why they didn't flinch when I called Honda Finance and asked them to forgive my 10% miles overage...
I think we can generally agree that the domestic nameplates' quality and fit and finish are generally 3-5 years behind the Japanese nameplates, can't we?
AngryCorvair wrote: i must ask if that's directed at me and my three-for-three honda transmission failures?
Nope, that wasn't directed at you.
I hear people bash the same cars me and my family have had great experiences with. Their two mid 90s Dodge Intrepids (a '93, destroyed in a head-on wreck, and a '95) had practically no problems.
My sister's '97 Grand Am had little bits and pieces falling off the interior, plus things like the window motors, but it was a previous rental car and it went for 10 years with no mechanical failures outside of regular wear items. It had a hard life and lasted well over 100k miles (I want to say approaching 140-150k, but it wasn't my car, so I'm not sure)
My parents' '99 Grand Cherokee really was a lemon, the whole transfer-case and transmission fiasco.
Their '96 Chrysler Cirrus didn't have any real problems either. The interior was pretty low-quality, but nothing fell off.
They got an '00 Grand Prix GTP. Great car, lots of fun. After they sold it, there was a recall about the supercharger potentially catching fire.
Their '06 Jeep Commander has had one problem, stalling at highway speeds due to the heavy keychain messing with the ignition. Common problem, though. They just take the key off the keychain when they drive it. Other than that, no problems at all. And it's led a tough life so far.
My '99 Wrangler is already past 10 years old (built in Sept. '98). Radiator died, but that's the only problem. No parts falling off or breaking, inside or outside. No mechanical failures. I take very good care of it.
I could go on, but I'm getting redundant. They (my parents and my sister) and I have also had foreign cars in those, but we've rarely had parts falling off and mechanical pieces falling off left and right of anything. The Grand Cherokee had that horrible t-case problem, the Grand Prix made quite a few trips to the shop (but so did their '03 Mazda 6), the Grand Am had interior parts falling off every so often (no big mechanical failures) and they had an old '86 Jetta (I know, I'm pushing it) that had an accelerator stick (common problem) and a leaky sunroof. The rest were pretty good. We took/take care of them. Foreign or domestic. I'm not here to say that Toyotas aren't more reliable or old Volvos don't last forever, but some of these "the engine in my '97 F-150 blew four times in 60k miles, and the transmission went twice, and the transfer case fell out" stories sound like something's not right
HiTempguy wrote: I have never owned a daily driver that wasn't japanese. Not for lack of trying, but for being unable to find anything worthwhile to drive. From 1985-around 1997 the big three made terrible vehicles compared to what else was being offered at the time. Hell, I paid $200 for a 1980 toyota corolla. The carb'd 3tc still started in -30*C weather, and this car had had the SNOT beat out of it for the past who knows how many years. Also all of the abuse I put my turbo fireflys/sprints through (that were poorly maintained by their previous owners). In comparison, my father bought a 1996 GMC 1/2 ton off the original owner (a good friend of his who owned a wireline business and needed a highway/idling truck) at 100,000kms. We put over 600,000kms on it and the motor never gave up. Along the way however, a cylinder head cracked for no reason, there was a big issue with carbon buildup in the heads, the tranny wasn't the happiest one in the world. It served its purpose and we more then got our money out of it.
How many miles did the Corolla go? 600,000 kms sounds like a lot of miles. I'm not really surprised that it had those mechanical issues considering how long it was on the road. There's a club somewhere, I forget where, of Chevy full-size truck owners. Gotta have at least 200k miles or something to join. Then there's bonuses for hitting 500k and 1 million miles. There's quite a lot of these full-size trucks still going that have serious mileage.
Here's stuff from my personal experience for whatever it's worth:
First car: 1976 Toyota Corona, 240,000 kms, regular maintenance, no serious problems ever, body rotted away before the engine had a chance to die.
1981 Toyota pickup, 180,000kms Kept it only 3 months, no complaints but I didn't have it long at all.
1982 Toyota pickup, unknown mileage, odometer broken. Was a telco svc truck, then my dad's company truck, then mine. Ran great until it hit a dancing lamppost.
1987 Toyota 4-runner 375,000 kms. Ate the head when it dropped a frost plug out on the highway. Used head was installed, sold the truck as it was rotting away.
1967 Fiat 850 Spyder. Rusted so fast you could hear it fizz. bad ground problems, fun car
1979 IHC Scout, solid as a rock but rotted away.
1982 Toyota Corolla, 180,000 kms and still running great. 1 water pump, 1 fuel pump, 1 clutch a couple sets of brakes and a couple batteries. No complaints but it's getting rusty.
1988 Jeep Comanche Eliminator. Ran great when it ran. Renault EFI was a giant PITA.
1967 Jeep Gladiator, mileage unknown, rusty as berkeley but won't quit running. Has a Buick 350
1996 Ford F-150, 140,000 kms. Only thing I ever bought new. 1 battery, 1 clutch, 1 clutch master, 1 clutch slave, 1 set of timing gears, 1 u-joint, 2 sets of brakes. Great truck, not rusty yet, still running, love this thing and would buy another.
1984 Indy Fiero, still have it, 200,000kms, hasn't caught fire yet but the interior is pretty tired.
multiple 1970's Trans-Ams, ok to work on, fun to drive but very poor build quality overall. I do like them though.
My old boss was a service writer for GM in the 90's. I asked him about buying a Cavalier. His exact words were "Ok but when or if it hits 120,000 kms you'd better sell it"
The US auto makers have built some E36 M3ty cars and upset some customers. The Japanese have built some E36 M3ty cars but seem to have taken better care of their customers.
I've had some pretty good luck with my domestics and I know some people who have had bad luck with domestics. I also think anyone can neglect a car.
Shawn
I've had pretty good luck with mine. I actually like the old Ford Fairmont/Mercury Zephyrs. Had two, one I paid $75 for (almost 20 years ago). Even in Michigan the bodies held up pretty well, and I've eyed at a number over the years. A '92ish Integra I bought was a really good car even though I got taken by the Acura dealership when I bought it used in '95. I've had two new American cars and one new Toyota pickup. My wife bought a 2002 Miata new. My 2000 Mustang GT held up well to boost and miscellaneous shenanigans for 60k miles before I sold it. I only had to replace one faulty ignition module in that time. My 2002 Tundra has been in for several issues over the years, more than my Mustang had. I'm a little concerned about its transmission, having done a bunch of miles as my tow vehicle straining behind a TRD blower. My wife has had a few inexplicable issues with her Miata related to hard starts and timing, but it seems okay now. I'll see how well my new Corvette holds up. There's a known issue with the roof latches, which is under warranty. It's due for its first service soon (10k miles) so I'll have them done at that time. Otherwise, it definitely deserves its place on Car and Drivel's 10 Best list. There's a good article in the latest Fortune magazine by a staffer who's covered GM for several decades. Good read and he concluded that Chapter 11 is the only way the company can get out of its mess. It seems to me that in the long run it's a lot cheaper to build a product that holds up and take care of customers when it doesn't. Having some experience with foreign and domestic dealerships, I can't really say that Mazda's or Toyota's dealerships do anything better.
Land Rover at the bottom again. Well, we may suck, but at least we're consistent!
JD Powers studies don't mean anything, because they've got a built in bias concerning perceived quality. The same squeak/rattle/leak that the average Chevy (just to pick a brand) buyer would accept (and expect) and therefore wouldn't note on the JD Powers survey would be a huge deal for, say, a BMW driver.
Yes, anecdotal evidence abounds, but I think it stands to reason that perceived quality and actual quality are fairly closely linked.
If 5% of the millions of people who've owned a domestic vehicle complain, there will be an ass load of complaints.
If 5% of the people who've owned an import complain, there will be many fewer complaints.
As import sales grow, complaints will grow. Note the increase in complaints about Toyotas lately.
Anecdotal evidence is crap.
JDPowers ratings aren't perfect. Squeaky brakes account for a large portion of new vehicle complaints. Buicks get quieter (and less effective) brakes than their Chevrolet equivalent that is built on the same line, so the Chevrolet will receive a lower rating.
In a model year-for-year comparison, domestics are (and have been) very close in quality to their import competition.
Did you know if a shop rag is left on top of the piston of a V6 diesel and the engine fired up it looks like it is snowing inside the shop? True story.
What domestic vehicle had a V6 diesel?
I think this story is full of crap.
Some Olds had a 4.3 diesel, it was a terrible, short lived engine. I don't think that leaving a shop rag on top of a piston was GM's fault though.
If it wasn't for the media, and the mysterious agenda of er... big... imports... we would all be lining up to buy these titans of mediocrity from proper automotive giants. You have been programmed to expect attractive, comfortable, solid, long lasting, rust free, good handling cars at affordable prices.
If it wasn't for right-minded buyers at Hertz and other fleet management companies we would not have time to reverse this evil plot before it was uncovered. Get out there and compromise people! For the greater good.
There is one point that you need to recall in the used car discussion. The cars that are "left" after all the years are ones that are built correctly. So while we are all fond of a car that will last ( ie you can read that as CHEAP, which we all are on here!) that car is just a small sample of entire volume for that year. I think we can all name a brand that has lasted.
I personally will not buy a japanese car. My job is tied to the auto industry here, and I will fully sport them and buy American!
How many Asian's do youy see in American cars here......almost ZERO, they are tied to their country. It is all about being part of a team, both Germany and Japan had to rebuild and use teamwork to get there. The US is not of that mindset anymore.
Maybe one day we will have engineers in charge of products and they will have the quality that comes with someone focused on the product and not on the profit.
If you build it, and build it proper, the money will follow
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