JagV12 is going to teach us Gross vs. Net HP

Engine               HP  Weight.   Year 

Ford Boss 351   330    550?    1971

Can we all just get along? 

In reply to AaronT :

Naw no spit swapping going to happen with Frenchy and I.  Hopefully I've distracted him enough from what I wanted to stay clean.

Meh underpowered heavyweights...

gasoline (petrol) engine with displacement: 2994 cm3 / 182.6 cui, advertised power: 191 213 kW / 256 286 hp / 260 290 PS ( DIN SAE ), torque: 343 388 Nm / 253 286 lb-ft,

All that in an alloy 6cyl. in 1976...

Sounds better than either as well.

aircooled said:

Fight, fight, fight, fight!

Now just a minute there, sonny. Are you tryin' to tell me Thunderdome was just an enormous Jungle Gymn? 

Did to, did not, did to, did not, poopy head..................infinity..............................

You're both DA's. The jag v12 is less displacement than a 350 Chevy. So I don't see how comparing it to something with 50 pct more cubes is in any way relevant.

Agreed with whoever said this is the weirdest duel ever. I don't even know who's honor has been insulted.

tester (Forum Supporter) said:

Engine               HP  Weight.   Year 

Ford Boss 351   330    550?    1971

Can we all just get along? 

Nice try but you failed to read the topic.  That's gross HP.

Stampie (FS) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Again you aren't answering my question.  You are purposefully choosing years that you know didn't make as much power for the Chevy.  Tell you what let's make a chart for 1971 the first year of the Jag V12.  Jag had 16 years of techical advancement over Chevy at that time.

 

Engine                   HP                Weight

Chevy LT1 350      275                575

Chevy LS6 454     325                 675

Jag V12                 282                680

So you barely beat a SBC but weigh 105lbs more?  You weigh 5lbs more but make 43hp less than a BBC.  71 is the fairest year to compare as you yourself have constantly pointed out the nonemissions power levels of the Jag.  If you want to get all special I'll start quoting Callaway 5.7 power levels from the 80s.  You could order them from the dealer so they count right?

Well according to my scale you are 50 pounds high. But you brought another red herring into the discussion.  
So yes the Jaguar is heavier than the Chevy.  You win on that one.  
      I'm not sure where you get Jaguar had 16 years experience?   The Cast Iron block 6 cylinder was designed during WW2 and went into production in 1948.  But that engine had nothing in common with the V12. 
      The first prototype V12 was  made in 1964 but that too had nothing in common with the  V12 that went into production in the fall of 1971.    
     The 425 Advertized  horsepower you keep alluding to was a rare option built before the smog laws came into effect. 
the 1971 V12 was designed to meet all coming smog laws for the next 21 years.  
Let's discuss availability. There were 115,000 XJS's made plus a lot more 4 door sedans and then we have the whole XKE series 3 from 1971- 1974. 
Just guessing around 300,000 plus?   Now how many Chevy 454's were made with the 425 horsepower gross rating?  
   
Now Price. What is the current market price of a complete 425 horsepower 454?   I saw a partial selling at over $5500 a few weeks ago but the sale wasn't over yet. What did that sell for?   If you've got $500 I'll sell you one of my V12's.  Or even better I'll trade you pick of any one for that 425 horsepower 454 you're so proud of. 
What do you mean you don't have one?   
  You've been bragging about something you don't own?   

Supply and demand.  People want a good powerful engine so the 454 is in demand even though there's so much supply comparatively.  People don't want a POS Jag V12 so even though the supply is low there's no demand except in your driveway.  I own a 454 and I'll bet you $100 it makes it to the Challenge before any of your Jags do.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Maybe, just maybe there is some ignorance involved?  Have you ever taken a Jaguar V12 apart?  I've taken plenty of Big block Chevy's apart including the Aluminum head one.  Of coarse there were 2 connecting rods sticking out the side of it. But I've taken them apart. 
       

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe it had a hole in it's side because you were the one that put it together.

IBTL 

I always thought Marjorie's patio could use some iron reinforcement in the form of irrelevant prehistoric boomer engines.

Edit: not an insult to boomers, I just mean these engines are literally old enough to wear white new balances in their corvette

I like one of the most unloved engines and race with them. My enthusiasm is at the exact level tolerable for this behavior. Let that be an example to you all.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

I found it. 454 LS6 production is debated 4439 or 4475. Compared to 300,000.  Kinda rare.   
you might be right. 
Supply and demand. Chevy could only sell less than 4500 LS 6 while Jaguar managed to sell 300,000.  
     Can you imagine how much more valuable the ZL1 engine with the all aluminum Block  like Jaguar has would be?  
As for you attempt to dismiss my mechanical ability. I've never had a Jaguar blow up on me.  Ever.  In spite of racing it for 40 years. Winning a fair number of races too.  If you visit the Packard museum that engine has been in that car since I built it.  

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Levity? 

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

I have not yet seen a quote that explicitly stated the standard Jag V12 made 61 more horsepower than specifically even the most powerful (and rarest) factory hot-rodded 454 variant, but that's what you're effectively claiming... Care to share where I missed it, or are you ranting against something that was never actually said?

I'd also argue that the most apples-apples comparison is in same emissions spec, regardless of year. If Jag was already built to the incoming emissions spec, but the LS6 was to the outgoing, that's apples-oranges (stacking the deck) regarding factory 'capability' of the engines to me.

It's like a train wreck.  

In reply to spitfirebill :

Exactly... Didn't you bring your bucket of gasoline to throw on it?

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

...and just to make BOTH of you happy, I'm currently building a street rod cruiser. It has a BBC, and a Jag IRS. 

I have a red Jaguar XJS that will be getting a Chevy v8 swap. Hopefully in the 6.0 variant. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

On top of his obsession, he makes E36 M3 up to support his obsession. 

Then on the jaguarforums people correct him and he still sticks to his self made facts, not as condescending as he does in GRM but that man is consistent. 

Anyway, I really miss when Frenchy and SVreX used to go back and forth about construction. I learn so much, I just couldn't tell if I was learning correct information. And that's the problem, some newby is going to read this E36 M3 and interpret false information as true. 

And then there's the GM Atlas is a copy of the Jag i6. 

Gross hp

Net hp.

Are you claiming every XJS, Xj, and XKE ever made had a V12? Because that's the production numbers (still greatly exaggerated) that you're proposing. They didn't make 300,000 engines.

Stampie (FS) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe it had a hole in it's side because you were the one that put it together.

Don't stoop to insults; you have proven yourself a better person than that. We all know that Frenchyd can't focus to answer a question without shifting around and clouding the issue with irrelevant "facts" that conflict with other irrelevant "facts" he presents. From trying to read his posts this past year, I don't doubt his knowledge or ability... but his communicational ability is horrible - at best! His motives SEEM to be pretty bad as well, sometimes The first few posts in this thread prove he'd rather cloud the question rather than admit that he misspoke.

A+ would read again!

So, uh, can somebody tell me the difference between gross and net hp?