just had a thought about electric cars

Just looked at the spyshots of the new Tesla sedan and a thought crossed my mind.

Pure electric cars...... For those of us in the cold areas....

What do they do for heat?

I can't imagine anything like a ceramic heater would work.

Coal burner in the glove box?

A gasoline burner!!

That's the reason I haven't built (or made more serious plans to build) an electric car yet. I could only use it from April to November.

Of course, a "winter beater" would be pretty easy (since that's all I drive anyway) to put up with for 4 months of the year.

Clem

Why not a ceramic heater? There are lots of options, the DIY guys use all sorts of different methods. Hair dryers powered by high voltage DC, household ceramic space heaters powered by high voltage DC, and high voltage DC water heaters that utilitize the stock heater core are the most common. erohslc isn't far off..some of the OEM electric cars of the 90s used fuel fired heaters! The most elegant ones, IMO, use a high voltage heat pump, but the noise is greater than typical heater elements would create.

Also, keep in mind that direct heating/cooling is far more effective than heating the air. It's much more efficient to use seat heaters and an electric heater (ala hair dryer, etc.) for the defroster as necessary than to heat the entire car to comfort level. Depending on how cold the outside area is, it may also be more effective to pre-heat the cabin with land power (similar to plugging in your diesel engine heater, you plug in your battery+cabin heater and have it start heating things up 30-60 minutes ahead of time). Since you're already plugged in to charge the batteries, it's no added hassle, just another thing to set up the controls for.

Bryce

I would imagine that the problem would be worse with lead/acid because of the thermal mass of the batteries. If you had the high-priced Lithium stuff, I'd think that while it would be quite sluggish on takeoff, once you get some current flowing, there would be enough waste heat generated to do OK.

The main reason that I shelved my plans for one is that on a fosil-burner you can see and smell the stuff that will blow you up. On an EV, it's the phantom menace!

Nashco wrote: Depending on how cold the outside area is, it may also be more effective to pre-heat the cabin with land power (similar to plugging in your diesel engine heater, you plug in your battery+cabin heater and have it start heating things up 30-60 minutes ahead of time). Since you're already plugged in to charge the batteries, it's no added hassle, just another thing to set up the controls for. Bryce

That's fine when the car is home in the stable....but leaving from work?

I have thoughts on the work thing I would have to run by HR. We have dedicated parking sports for Diesel trucks in the winter. They have outlets for the block heaters.. I wonder if an electric car could be set up the same way

Grtechguy wrote:

Nashco wrote: Depending on how cold the outside area is, it may also be more effective to pre-heat the cabin with land power (similar to plugging in your diesel engine heater, you plug in your battery+cabin heater and have it start heating things up 30-60 minutes ahead of time). Since you're already plugged in to charge the batteries, it's no added hassle, just another thing to set up the controls for.

That's fine when the car is home in the stable....but leaving from work?

I mentioned the multiple different methods available for heating the car above. Those still apply just the same, except you don't get to pre-heat the cabin, it's cold when you get in just like it is with your fuel burner. The advantage is that the electric heaters heat up very fast. Even conversions that use the existing coolant based heater core and a high voltage water heater heat up much faster than a gas car because there's significantly less system volume. Of course, it's not waste energy like you have with a gas engine, so you have to use your energy wisely, but it still works just fine. If you're in a super cold environment you'd want to either arrange for a place to plug in or have enough batteries to compensate for voltage sag with cold batteries and power consumption by the heaters.

Bryce

mad_machine wrote: I have thoughts on the work thing I would have to run by HR. We have dedicated parking sports for Diesel trucks in the winter. They have outlets for the block heaters.. I wonder if an electric car could be set up the same way

Many people arrange something with their employers. If there's nearby power already available, it's usually pretty easy going. If facility improvement are required, it's totally a case-by-case basis depending on if the boss/owner digs EVs or not.

Bryce

Nashco wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I have thoughts on the work thing I would have to run by HR. We have dedicated parking sports for Diesel trucks in the winter. They have outlets for the block heaters.. I wonder if an electric car could be set up the same way

Many people who are poseur douchebags wishing to give the appearance of saving the planet while blindly ignoring that the other end of that extension cord goes right to a coal plant, but that's ok because it's NIMBY, arrange something with their employers. If there's nearby power already available, it's usually pretty easy going. If facility improvement are required, it's totally a case-by-case basis depending on if the boss/owner digs EVs or not. Bryce

fixed

AngryCorvair wrote:

Nashco wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I have thoughts on the work thing I would have to run by HR. We have dedicated parking sports for Diesel trucks in the winter. They have outlets for the block heaters.. I wonder if an electric car could be set up the same way

Many people who are poseur douchebags wishing to give the appearance of saving the planet while blindly ignoring that the other end of that extension cord goes right a coal plant, but that's ok because it's NIMBY, arrange something with their employers. If there's nearby power already available, it's usually pretty easy going. If facility improvement are required, it's totally a case-by-case basis depending on if the boss/owner digs EVs or not. Bryce

fixed

You know how a diesel train burns a E36 M3 load more fuel per mile than your car? Yeah, so it takes 400 gallons of diesel to move a train 50 miles while it only takes 2 gallons to move your 3000 pound car the same distance. However, when you look at how much mass is being moved with that locomotive, suddenly, you get a whole lot more efficient.

That's how coal plants operate. Sure, they pollute and they're dirty, but if all of our cars were powered by them, we'd actually be increasing our efficiency. Yes, the output of the plants might have to go up, but they're better at powering our cars than gasoline engines are.

Basically, the decrease in automotive emissions would materially offset the increase in coal plant emissions.

who are poseur douchebags wishing to give the appearance of saving the planet while blindly ignoring that the other end of that extension cord goes right a coal plant, but that's ok because it's NIMBY

Um, ever heard of charging during off-peak production periods? I think that you may wish to put your dick back in it's pocket. If you feel the need to vent, I'd recommend something substantially more silly - like ethanol production.

kreb wrote:

who are poseur douchebags wishing to give the appearance of saving the planet while blindly ignoring that the other end of that extension cord goes right a coal plant, but that's ok because it's NIMBY

Um, ever heard of charging during off-peak production periods? I think that you may wish to put your dick back in it's pocket. If you feel the need to vent, I'd recommend something substantially more silly - like ethanol production.

He's not referencing off-peak production. Regardless, off-peak production will need to increase too, once the switch to electric goes through.

kreb wrote:

who are poseur douchebags wishing to give the appearance of saving the planet while blindly ignoring that the other end of that extension cord goes right a coal plant, but that's ok because it's NIMBY

Um, ever heard of charging during off-peak production periods? I think that you may wish to put your dick back in it's pocket. If you feel the need to vent, I'd recommend something substantially more silly - like ethanol production.

you're right, i went back and edited my previous fixing of Nashco's post -- i had inadvertently left out the word "to" before "a coal plant." thanks for pointing that out.

since Nashco's post was talking about plugging in at work, and since most people work first-shift, that's not really off-peak.

i guess i just hate hippies is all.

AngryCorvair wrote: i guess i just hate hippies is all.

Will be a shirt by monday.

Hippies can't afford electric cars, and the one's who are smart enough to build their own - are rarely hippies anyway.

That is something the most tend to ignore. Electric cars are really much more of a pollution solution than an energy solution. The energy (electricity) still needs to be produced, and if it isn't coal (what is it 60-70% now) it will mostly be some sort of fossil fuel. I think nukes are under 10% in this country currently.

Of course, how much cleaner a coal plant is at producing electricity (adding in transportation, storage and efficiency losses) compared to a PZEV car burning gasoline? Might not be any, which means it is only moving the pollution (which has some benefit I guess).

aircooled wrote: That is something the most tend to ignore. Electric cars are really much more of a pollution solution than an energy solution. The energy (electricity) still needs to be produced, and if it isn't coal (what is it 60-70% now) it will mostly be some sort of fossil fuel. I think nukes are under 10% in this country currently. Of course, how much cleaner a coal plant is at producing electricity (adding in transportation, storage and efficiency losses) compared to a PZEV car burning gasoline? Might not be any, which means it is only moving the pollution (which has some benefit I guess).

We're also seeing new energy creation methods coming into play and becoming more wide-spread. Natural Gas is cheap, very clean, and produced right here (we don't need to pay to ship it to our country on ships and we don't need to worry about what other countries think about us). All we need to do is burn it. Of course, this isn't new, but I think solar energy is in for some innovation--not photo cells, but focused sunlight on a Sterling engine. You use mirrors to focus sunlight on a small area--this area is the hot-side of a Sterling engine. The engine runs at a high efficiency and turns a generator. This whole system is much better than your average solar panels.

AngryCorvair wrote: you're right, i went back and edited my previous fixing of Nashco's post -- i had inadvertently left out the word "to" before "a coal plant." thanks for pointing that out. since Nashco's post was talking about plugging in at work, and since most people work first-shift, that's not really off-peak. i guess i just hate hippies is all.

I guess I'm failing to see how plugging in at work, or having an electric car in general, is a hippie thing. Do you know what a hippie is? Plugging in at work, if you can swing it, is great to maximize efficiency, reduce weight, and reduce cost. If every building had a gas pump on it, wouldn't you rather run a 3 gallon tank and avoid hauling around an extra 100 pounds (and a few square feet) of gas all the time? Just think of how much we'd all appreciate such a simple weight/cost/packaging improvement on our cars with pumps available at every street address! Now figure in an electric car it's more like hundredS of pounds instead of just one hundred pounds saved. Also, as mentioned, even if you're running of pure coal power, the emissions are still better than a typical gas engine when you look at the energy efficiency from source to usage (well to wheels, etc.). Of course, where I'm at we don't use as much coal power as other parts of the country and if you want you can even pay a bit extra to get all renewable energy (no coal, natural gas, etc.), so to point out coal plants and NIMBYists is a little weird. You're a smart guy, you know how energy efficiency works, either you're just screwing around or you are very misinformed.

Wait..is this an inferiority complex because you work with waste heat generators (friction brakes) instead of regenerative brakes?

Bryce

aircooled wrote: Of course, how much cleaner a coal plant is at producing electricity (adding in transportation, storage and efficiency losses) compared to a PZEV car burning gasoline? Might not be any, which means it is only moving the pollution (which has some benefit I guess).

Actually quite a bit. On the order of 90% reduction in pollutants if we switched a few million gasoline cars to coal fired electricity.

http://electroauto.com/info/pollmyth.shtml

And we could add a couple million electric cars to the grid just in California without adding a single powerplant, so long as people used smart chargers to do most of the charging in off-peak hours.

If people DID recharge at work, they would basically only be "topping off," for the vast majority of them, so it would add very little load to the grid.

wow... this got to finger pointing fast.. did not realise so many people here were anti-electric. I would have thought the instant torque (electric motors make max torgue at ZERO RPMS) and power would have had a lot of people more interested.

As for the onpeak charge issue I have been accused of being a douchbag over.. I do not work first shift.. or 2nd, or even 3rd.. I work in theatre and A/V.. I work whenever I am needed.. often times I go to work in the dark or come home in it..

As for power.. I have one gas fueled plant 5 miles from here.. and two nuclear within 40.. I know where my electricity comes from

confuZion3 wrote: Natural Gas is cheap, very clean, and produced right here (we don't need to pay to ship it to our country on ships and we don't need to worry about what other countries think about us). All we need to do is burn it....

A bit of news I heard on this the other day. Apparently natural gas production (in the US?) has already hit the production peak and is currently on the way down. If this is true, it would be very bad to switch a lot over to NG. I think the only source that has not hit peak yet is coal, I think that was 2040 or so.

aircooled wrote:

confuZion3 wrote: Natural Gas is cheap, very clean, and produced right here (we don't need to pay to ship it to our country on ships and we don't need to worry about what other countries think about us). All we need to do is burn it....

A bit of news I heard on this the other day. Apparently natural gas production (in the US?) has already hit the production peak and is currently on the way down. If this is true, it would be very bad to switch a lot over to NG. I think the only source that has not hit peak yet is coal, I think that was projected at 2040 or so.

To post a message in reference to the original thought...

Run the air conditioner backwards...not much heat but does work-ever seen a mitsubishi Mr. Slim that is how some of them work, and everything is there (if it has an electric ac compressor)