Just how “good” are the really good coilovers?

GameboyRMH said:

You left off the Penske/spool valve/G-sensitive bracket, where $3k will get you a coilover...

Edit: Oh and above that is McLaren FRICS...price is unknown but likely deep into the 5-digits.

This is what I run. They are rebuildable. They can be valved any way you want. Springs are easy to find or have made.

But and this is a huge full round butt. They are only as good as the setup. I would take a set of Koni's and good springs on a Miata over a set of 4 way adjustable Penske's any day of the week unless I had the time and money to spend on valving, spring selection and just general tuning. IE if there is a Fox setup that is in budget and it has everything pre done for you its the better option unless you really have some cash to spend.

In reply to z31maniac :

They don't appear to, unfortunately!

Sounds good everyone. Thank you for the input. Sounds like, for what I want and use, the lower end coilovers will do fine 

Dave M said:

In reply to z31maniac :

They don't appear to, unfortunately!

The budget setup I'd go with, if available, is a custom FEAL setup. Under $2k and they will build them to your desired usage. Some of the BRZ guys actually trophied on his stuff, so he knows what he's doing regarding getting the spring rates and valving pretty close for your needs. 

But of course it will never be something like XIDA/FOX for the Miata's. I can't imagine how many tens of thousands of miles of testing has happened on suspension work between those two shops alone.

z31maniac said:

Dave M said:

In reply to z31maniac :

They don't appear to, unfortunately!

The budget setup I'd go with, if available, is a custom FEAL setup. Under $2k and they will build them to your desired usage. Some of the BRZ guys actually trophied on his stuff, so he knows what he's doing regarding getting the spring rates and valving pretty close for your needs.

This is a very good idea, I'd like to send my D2s there for a custom rebuild & revalve if they blow up, but realistically the shipping nightmare will probably restrict me to replacement D2s...

NickD said:

_ said:

Side question- is there any substantial, tangible evidence to the $3,000 coilovers our performing a set of $1,000 coilovers? Or even $600 coilovers? 

 

Like I said in my first post, my car would be a fair bit faster in an autocross or track with a set of Xidas/Fox/Ohlins over my VMaxx Classics, because it would be able to properly run enough spring rate to keep from lifting the inside rear tire on hard cornering. With a Torsen differential, whenever you lift a tire, the diff essentially goes open, and it starts spinning the inside tire and clawing for traction. And that's just the obvious benefit. 

What front bar are you running?  I only ask because I never see ST miatas lift a rear tire 

z31maniac said:

Dave M said:

In reply to z31maniac :

They don't appear to, unfortunately!

The budget setup I'd go with, if available, is a custom FEAL setup. Under $2k and they will build them to your desired usage. Some of the BRZ guys actually trophied on his stuff, so he knows what he's doing regarding getting the spring rates and valving pretty close for your needs. 

 

But of course it will never be something like XIDA/FOX for the Miata's. I can't imagine how many tens of thousands of miles of testing has happened on suspension work between those two shops alone.

Came here to mention  Feal too I had a long no China shock policy here until I came across my first set of Feals the guys there know what they're doing and can turn out some damn good shocks on a budget. Semi-serious buy 'em from me plug. 

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Canoe?

rdcyclist said:

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Canoe?

94th post, unlikely?

I'm just a road course HPDE and private track day hack, but here's my hierarchy on pricing if I'm going to spend anything over the stock setup.

If it doesn't have enough travel, it's not good enough.  Same for individual corner height adjustment with enough range to let me nail the front/rear wedge so the car brakes right, and some left over for crossweight adjustment.

Some rebound damping adjustment that I can change without disassembling anything, lets m adjust the balance of the front and rear so I can make the car tight, neutral, or loose.

Beyond that, will pay up more for a damper that will control the spring rate I want to use, plus a little more.  Usually, the $1500 stuff can only get me about 70-80% of the way to my dream ceiling.  Because of the budget, I often have to live with that.

Beyond that I start getting into a price range where rebuild-ability is important for longevity, and secondary market appeal is important in case I need to sell them.

Then I start trying get compression adjustment, again easy access, because it will let me not only adjust tight/neutral/loose, but it will really let me start dividing that into corner entry, mid-corner, and corner exit.

And finally, I start worrying whether the internals can keep their damping pretty consistent for the duration of the track session. 

I just bought a car with a set of pimpy shocks (Bilstein double adjustable MDS), and what a difference. I’ve always been a Koni sport fan and have had them on every autocross car I’ve ever owned, but these are a noticeable difference. Not only in ride quality, but also a noticeable change with one click of adjustment. 

Also interested in this topic.

I drive an SMF class Civic currently on the Koni yellow/ground control usual set up with 375lb/in front and 430lb/in rear. I have a stock integra LS front sway bar and a 23mm rear bar. 

215/45/16 rival S 1.5 on 16x8 wheels.

Looking to get more rotation out of the car, currently running 33psi in the front and 50psi in the rear to get it to rotate. From pictures and based on tire wear I still have quite a bit of body roll, I'd like to a) get it flatter b)loosen the rear end up.

I'm thinking of going to 17" wheels and a reverse stagger tire setup with 245 or 255 front tires if I can cut away enough fender. That should help with rotation but hurt the body roll. I don't have much more headroom with the Konis, I've heard they don't like much more than 500lb/in springs. So I'm debating getting mine revalved, or selling them and picking up something custom built from possibly Fortune Auto. I just don't know which is the better value.

I would take the revalved Konis in that case. Call up Lee Grimes and he’ll get you what you need. 

I find it interesting that “amount of change per click” is viewed as a metric for judging shocks. It’s not something I’d considered. 

Here is a question I haven't really put much thought into before, but now that I am considering a challenge entry it matters:

Lets say you have an unsupported chassis with McStruts.  From a pure track/autox performance standpoint, how would garbage ebay coilovers compare to aftermarket drop springs (H&R Sport) on stock shocks or even aftermarket 'race' springs (H&R Race) on stock shocks?

The drop springs have limited compression travel, and the stock shocks get underdamped quickly.  The 'race' springs are like 2.4x the rate of stock springs and also have the the same travel issues.

I'm sure the $200-400 coilovers don't have a ton of travel, but at least they have respectable spring rates and can keep the gross body roll under control.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Tell them they can stop in the springs and drive a fox car if they want.  Did they ever drive her with the fox suspension? I'll probably be in PA or Boston though. 

I’ll tell you from experience with those maxpeedingrods, they weren’t old, and the were already leaking oil. Those things garbage. Not worthy of anything that has a budget for stock springs and brand name stock shocks. 

Run_Away said:

Also interested in this topic.

I drive an SMF class Civic currently on the Koni yellow/ground control usual set up with 375lb/in front and 430lb/in rear. I have a stock integra LS front sway bar and a 23mm rear bar. 

215/45/16 rival S 1.5 on 16x8 wheels.

 

Looking to get more rotation out of the car, currently running 33psi in the front and 50psi in the rear to get it to rotate. From pictures and based on tire wear I still have quite a bit of body roll, I'd like to a) get it flatter b)loosen the rear end up.

I'm thinking of going to 17" wheels and a reverse stagger tire setup with 245 or 255 front tires if I can cut away enough fender. That should help with rotation but hurt the body roll. I don't have much more headroom with the Konis, I've heard they don't like much more than 500lb/in springs. So I'm debating getting mine revalved, or selling them and picking up something custom built from possibly Fortune Auto. I just don't know which is the better value.

Any reason to not go to a 15x8" and run 245/40? Or is it too large of a gearing hit?

Are there any OEM sway bars that are thicker that you can put on to help loosen up the rear?

_ said:

Side question- is there any substantial, tangible evidence to the $3,000 coilovers our performing a set of $1,000 coilovers? Or even $600 coilovers? 

FYI the difference between some of the better $200 per corner dampers ($1200 height adjustable coilover kits) and $500 per corner dampers ($3000-$4500 coilover kits) comes down to small external differences rather than big differences in the internals.

A few years ago I got access to a shock dyno and have had the opportunity to do tons of back to back testing on various new and used Honda dampers. I found out that the basic Tein twin tube and monotube designs are about as responsive and heat-resistant as the entry level racing dampers from Koni. In retrospect it shouldn't have been a surprise. The fundamental design of the hydraulic suspension damper hasn't changed in a long time, so as long as you engineer to your application, use decent materials, and maintain good QC practices, you can make a decent suspension damper for track or auto-x use.

Being that they were primarily designed for street use though, there are some compromises. Part of the reason that the Teins are so fade resistant is that the bodies are larger and designed to hold more fluid than dedicated racing dampers. So they're heavy. A set of Tein Super Street twin tube dampers for a Civic weighs almost twice what a set of Penske 7500 does for the same application. On a similar vein they also often use larger diameter or unusually shaped springs. Case in point I'm stuck with 70mm / 2.75" springs. There are only two US-based manufacturers that sell race-worthy 70mm springs and only one of them makes them in the sky-high rates that older Hondas like. They're also not field-revalvable - Well, not without doing some extensive modifications anyway. It's a non-issue for most racers but that's a dealbreaker for some hardcore auto-x guys.

In some applications (e.g. club racing on a paved road course) these compromises matter so little that the gap between the guys running $1000 dampers and $3500 coilovers might completely negligible. If your goal is a trophy at SCCA Nationals though, it may be worth starting your search at the $500 per corner dampers and working your way down.

rdcyclist said:

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Canoe?

Too fat to do manual boating. I'm a real guy this year was my second $20xx Challenge I do have a vested interest in selling Feal shocks among other go fast parts if plugs are unwelcome that's not a problem. My intention was to mention them as a viable option for those on a budget. 

z31maniac said:

Run_Away said:

Also interested in this topic.

I drive an SMF class Civic currently on the Koni yellow/ground control usual set up with 375lb/in front and 430lb/in rear. I have a stock integra LS front sway bar and a 23mm rear bar. 

215/45/16 rival S 1.5 on 16x8 wheels.

 

Looking to get more rotation out of the car, currently running 33psi in the front and 50psi in the rear to get it to rotate. From pictures and based on tire wear I still have quite a bit of body roll, I'd like to a) get it flatter b)loosen the rear end up.

I'm thinking of going to 17" wheels and a reverse stagger tire setup with 245 or 255 front tires if I can cut away enough fender. That should help with rotation but hurt the body roll. I don't have much more headroom with the Konis, I've heard they don't like much more than 500lb/in springs. So I'm debating getting mine revalved, or selling them and picking up something custom built from possibly Fortune Auto. I just don't know which is the better value.

Any reason to not go to a 15x8" and run 245/40? Or is it too large of a gearing hit?

Its funny that I'm questioning this, given that I used to co-drive a STX WRX with 245/40s on a 8" wide wheel, but in the 15" world that seems like way too much tire for the wheel, right?

In reply to ProDarwin :

In the 2017 Challenge I ran a supercharged Miata. It came on stock sport springs and Bilstein shocks. I replaced the springs and perches with $40 worth of Ebay Chinesium adjustable collars and springs and added a homemade front sway bar. The car was the 2nd fastest autocross (in a tie) car there. It handled really well. Springs were marked as 450F/350R. I've been giving thought to the whole Gastropod thing and looking at some unsupported cars, too. Finding a usable rear shock shouldn't be hard and adapting struts from other vehicles for the front should be possible, too. Once you commit to using coilover conversions the only important parameter is finding the right length. I can weld new mounting tabs on a strut, reuse or create a top mount, etc. I've been itching to try fitting Subaru WRX stuff toa MINI (It's been done) or VW GTI bits to a Kia/Hyundai.

ProDarwin said:

z31maniac said:

Run_Away said:

Also interested in this topic.

I drive an SMF class Civic currently on the Koni yellow/ground control usual set up with 375lb/in front and 430lb/in rear. I have a stock integra LS front sway bar and a 23mm rear bar. 

215/45/16 rival S 1.5 on 16x8 wheels.

 

Looking to get more rotation out of the car, currently running 33psi in the front and 50psi in the rear to get it to rotate. From pictures and based on tire wear I still have quite a bit of body roll, I'd like to a) get it flatter b)loosen the rear end up.

I'm thinking of going to 17" wheels and a reverse stagger tire setup with 245 or 255 front tires if I can cut away enough fender. That should help with rotation but hurt the body roll. I don't have much more headroom with the Konis, I've heard they don't like much more than 500lb/in springs. So I'm debating getting mine revalved, or selling them and picking up something custom built from possibly Fortune Auto. I just don't know which is the better value.

Any reason to not go to a 15x8" and run 245/40? Or is it too large of a gearing hit?

Its funny that I'm questioning this, given that I used to co-drive a STX WRX with 245/40s on a 8" wide wheel, but in the 15" world that seems like way too much tire for the wheel, right?

Ideally you'd put it on a 10" but I'm not familiar with the SMF rules.

DeadSkunk said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

In the 2017 Challenge I ran a supercharged Miata. It came on stock sport springs and Bilstein shocks. I replaced the springs and perches with $40 worth of Ebay Chinesium adjustable collars and springs and added a homemade front sway bar. The car was the 2nd fastest autocross (in a tie) car there. It handled really well. Springs were marked as 450F/350R. I've been giving thought to the whole Gastropod thing and looking at some unsupported cars, too. Finding a usable rear shock shouldn't be hard and adapting struts from other vehicles for the front should be possible, too. Once you commit to using coilover conversions the only important parameter is finding the right length. I can weld new mounting tabs on a strut, reuse or create a top mount, etc. I've been itching to try fitting Subaru WRX stuff toa MINI (It's been done) or VW GTI bits to a Kia/Hyundai.

My concerns regarding that route would be finding a strut that A) is easy to adapt to my car (WRX works well in this case) B) will support the spring rates I'm after and C) is easy to disassemble so I can weld to it - or is there an easy way to handle this part? and D) isn't crazy expensive

Keith Tanner said:

 

I find it interesting that “amount of change per click” is viewed as a metric for judging shocks. It’s not something I’d considered. 

It makes sense though. If you're super ultra race car driver and need absolutely minute adjustment, something that makes massive changes per each click isn't going to work for you. On the flip side, I'm reminded of Mike Finnegan saying how for a year he thought there was something fundamentally wrong with the chassis on Blasphemi because they would make a few clicks on the shock and nothing seemed to be changing or getting better. Over the winter, he sent the shocks out and had them dyno'd and discovered, no, they just had really minute adjustments, so if they needed big changes, they had to go to town and crank the adjustment knobs.

z31maniac said:

Run_Away said:

Also interested in this topic.

I drive an SMF class Civic currently on the Koni yellow/ground control usual set up with 375lb/in front and 430lb/in rear. I have a stock integra LS front sway bar and a 23mm rear bar. 

215/45/16 rival S 1.5 on 16x8 wheels.

 

Looking to get more rotation out of the car, currently running 33psi in the front and 50psi in the rear to get it to rotate. From pictures and based on tire wear I still have quite a bit of body roll, I'd like to a) get it flatter b)loosen the rear end up.

I'm thinking of going to 17" wheels and a reverse stagger tire setup with 245 or 255 front tires if I can cut away enough fender. That should help with rotation but hurt the body roll. I don't have much more headroom with the Konis, I've heard they don't like much more than 500lb/in springs. So I'm debating getting mine revalved, or selling them and picking up something custom built from possibly Fortune Auto. I just don't know which is the better value.

Any reason to not go to a 15x8" and run 245/40? Or is it too large of a gearing hit?

Are there any OEM sway bars that are thicker that you can put on to help loosen up the rear?

The rear bar I have now is the largest OEM bar available. There's a conventional aftermarket bar that's 1mm larger than what I have, then the next step up is the ASR 32mm hollow rear bar available in 3 different wall thicknesses. I'm not sure how much a larger rear bar will help, the car already lifts the inside rear often. I'm no suspension expert, but I've heard that once it's off the ground a larger bar isn't going to do anything other than lift it off the ground sooner. How much looser that will make it I'm not sure.

As for wheel size, it's mainly driven by tire choice. The 245/40/15 size are just the Rival and RS4 for competitive 200tw tires. I'd also want a much wider wheel than 8" for a 245. My car is 5 lug not 4x100 anymore, and wide 5 lug 15" wheels in positive offsets are pretty much non existant. My current wheel I basically only have one tire choice, and while it's a good one, I want more grip and I'm nervous if the size ever gets discontinued.

Gearing is another reason too, I'm currently topped out in 2nd at 58mph. I'm on the limiter far too much. I have another trans that would put me at 71mph in 2nd, but that's the opposite side of the spectrum.

This is getting to be a bit of a threadjack, maybe I should start my own...