Sigh.
E36 M3 like this is why I will NEVER live in the state of California... Only way I could do it is if I didn't own a car.
This is bad because why?
note that Jegs was reported by the public.
I'm not sure if Jegs was doing this, but I assume this is why many retailers note "Not for street use"
Would this be enough to not have caused an issue? This way, it's on the consumer to determine if the risk of installing it on a street car is worth taking and (I'd think) would release the seller from liability?
Let's say, for instance, someone was purchasing these parts for a track-only car and they lived in California
alfadriver said:This is bad because why?
note that Jegs was reported by the public.
1. The parts were sold by jegs, not installed or used by jegs. Possession of a non-carb part isn't illegal... but apparently the sale of one is? ^ Like stated above, 'track use only. '
2. There's no proof a non-carb intake or exhaust actually makes the air worse. It just means you paid for the sticker. If I created an exact copy of a $300 intake tube (CARB approved) and sold mine for $100, there'd be no net difference environmentally other than the state getting their fee for putting a sticker on it.
The performance/tuner crowd is SUCH a small portion of cars on the road that I really think CA is making a huge fuss over nothing.
alfadriver said:This is bad because why?
note that Jegs was reported by the public.
Stuff like this leads to issues like this example: I have an old car that I'm building an exhaust for an I want to add cats that it never came with so it doesn't stink in traffic. But I can't buy a cheap high flow because it's illegal to sell in CA...
In reply to Blaise :
Interestingly when I lived in California I bought a WRX from out of state with an intake, aftermarket exhaust and a basic tune. Went I went for an emissions check it failed due to the visual inspection (looking for CARB approved tags). I switched everything with stock components and it passed. The kicker is that when comparing the actual emissions data, the OEM parts resulted in worse pollutant levels.
rslifkin said:alfadriver said:This is bad because why?
note that Jegs was reported by the public.
Stuff like this leads to issues like this example: I have an old car that I'm building an exhaust for an I want to add cats that it never came with so it doesn't stink in traffic. But I can't buy a cheap high flow because it's illegal to sell in CA...
Fair, but not common enough to worry about.
Blaise said:alfadriver said:This is bad because why?
note that Jegs was reported by the public.
1. The parts were sold by jegs, not installed or used by jegs. Possession of a non-carb part isn't illegal... but apparently the sale of one is? ^ Like stated above, 'track use only. '
2. There's no proof a non-carb intake or exhaust actually makes the air worse. It just means you paid for the sticker. If I created an exact copy of a $300 intake tube (CARB approved) and sold mine for $100, there'd be no net difference environmentally other than the state getting their fee for putting a sticker on it.
The performance/tuner crowd is SUCH a small portion of cars on the road that I really think CA is making a huge fuss over nothing.
Why is it a bad thing to require companies to sell only legal items? I don’t really understand that problem. As for consumers, there are checks for them, too.
As for proving a part is legal or not, that is well defined how to do that. Companies much smaller than Jegs do it all the time. They have no excuse not to. The process isn’t just paying for a sticker, but demonstrating that it works
Here’s my point- if Jegs can do this, and it does harm the environment, then it will lead to more harsh rules for OEM, ending in the end of the ICE. But if we all work together, we can help instead of hurt.
rslifkin said:E36 M3 like this is why I will NEVER live in the state of California... Only way I could do it is if I didn't own a car.
I find posts like this really annoying. You act as if CARB rules make it impossible to be a motorhead here. That is a long way from the truth. GRM is all about ingenuity. If you can't find your way around a few rules, perhaps that says more about you than about California.
As for the matter at hand. It could be a matter of overreach by CARB, or Jegs could legitimately be breaking the rules. It's early to tell, but neither scenario would surprise me.
I'd rather see states make the annual (or however often) emissions testing a somewhat more meaningful test and then be more open about what parts you can use to modify a car. For the number of people who actually modify their stuff, the impact shouldn't be huge. Basically, what you can build will be limited by "will it pass the test?" not "does the part have the right stamp on it?".
As far as being impossible to be a motorhead in Cali, it's not. But at the same time, I don't know of a single CARB approved cat that is larger / better flowing than the OEM one. So on something like my Jeep that started with a single 2.5" in / out cat, that would quickly become very limiting if I wanted more power. Funny enough, my headers have a CARB stamp, but they assume you're going to down-size the 3" y-pipe output into the stock 2.5" cat and defeat 90% of the gains...
In reply to alfadriver :
Because it's legal for 90% of the population of the United States of America. Or 49 out of 50 states.
I agree that an awful lot of what comes out of CARB is methane-level BS. That wasn't what I was responding to.
Wow that is awful. So now every retailer is responsible for how their products are used? Does this apply to baseball bats, knives and cars also? I'm moving there and suing Honda every time I get a speeding ticket. Clearly, they shouldn't have sold me something capable of breaking the law.
To be honest, I'd rather see someone adamant that they'll never live somewhere rather than living there and bitching about the laws.
I would prefer to use my ingenuity to go faster, not to adapt to a law.
rslifkin said:E36 M3 like this is why I will NEVER live in the state of California... Only way I could do it is if I didn't own a car.
I thought like that before I moved to California. But, then I moved there and had a E36 M3 ton of awesome cars and they were cheap too. I moved away a few months ago for Texas, I miss California. Cali has the largest and probably best car culture so obviously the laws don't hinder the enthusiast as much as the pessimist think.
RossD said:In reply to alfadriver :
Because it's legal for 90% of the population of the United States of America. Or 49 out of 50 states.
Not necessarily. EPA also has parts approval process to sell aftermarket parts. The difference is that CARB is more restrictive. Which is their legal right to be, uniquely of the rest of the states.
And that ignores the other states that use California rules.
tuna55 said:Wow that is awful. So now every retailer is responsible for how their products are used? Does this apply to baseball bats, knives and cars also? I'm moving there and suing Honda every time I get a speeding ticket. Clearly, they shouldn't have sold me something capable of breaking the law.
Uh, yes, manufactures are responsible to make and market legal items. Been that way for a long time.
Wine can not be sold that has poison in it.
This isn’t about the use of the product.
Actually CARB rules are easier than most epa rules because CARB only cares about NOx for the most parts. That’s why automakers build most of their vehicles to that spec anyways.
As far as it being “the public” being the source, I bet it’s really a business in the same arena *cough*Summit*cough*....
In reply to alfadriver :
No, it's exactly about the use of the product. I can use anything in the entire catalog on my race car in California. It's all legal to be used.
While CARB sucks in many ways, what sucked far more was to be more than a couple of miles inland on a summer day in the Los Angeles basin in the 1970s. As a teenager we used to take skateboarding trips down there. In Uplands, the skatepark was about half a mile from the base of Mount Baldy, which was gorgeous if you could see it - which we never could. The routine there would be to skate for half an hour or so until the smog had you hacking so much that you couldn't skate any more. Then you'd sit in the shade, drink a coke till you could breathe again, after which you'd skate, hack up a lung, rinse, lather, repeat.
In reply to Ranger50 :
NOx really isn't the one California worries about. And I would not call them easier. It's more about the rules- EPA has specific rules that you can meet CARB or EPA at your choice, CARB does not. So the trend is to follow CARB instead of EPA. Especially as LEVII and TIer3 work their way into the market. Just a correction.
tuna55 said:In reply to alfadriver :
No, it's exactly about the use of the product. I can use anything in the entire catalog on my race car in California. It's all legal to be used.
I'm not sure what you point is. California allows for race cars. Do you want that to change? They can easily make race cars meet the same requirements as street cars. IMHO, that would be far worse.
Again, if Jegs is selling stuff for on road use that isn't legal, and they get away with it, then the eventual ban on the race car exemption would be clearly in the works. That's far worse than making Jegs sell legal parts for on road use.
Race cars are not supposed to be used on the street. Is that so tough? That keeps the population of cars that pollute small enough to not really effect things.
Why is it bad? Well, because most of us don't want to live in a real version of 1984 where big brother is always watching everything. Maybe you're fine with it, but we're not. If that is the utopia you desire, there are already places in the world like that. I suggest moving there.
In reply to alfadriver :
Let's make this as simple as possible
Jegs sells parts for race cars and street cars. Labeled as such.
Johnny buys race car parts, puts them on his street car, gets caught, and Jegs gets sued.
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