Karting as a learning tool . . .

I am an HPDE/autocrosser currently who may try a relatively low-budget race series like spec miata or spec racer ford in the next few years.

I have attended a couple of schools (Skip Barber) and done a bit over a dozen HPDE and autocrosses and wanted to get feedback on karting as a good tool to increase car control skills for road racing.

One of the guys at the shop that put together my track/ A/X car races and builds carts. I tried one out recently and was blown away in terms of the speed, car control and physical stamina required. It struck me that karting is the equivalent of wearing a weighted vest when running the bases: If you can do it in a kart, then going to a street car would seem that much easier.

My friend has offered to build me a Rotax-type (non-shifter kart) in the $6-9K range. Would this be money well spent or should I just focus on HPDE, a/x and driving schools (Skip Barber Advanced courses, etc) in "regular" cars in order to continue my driver training? I do have a great karting track very close to me (Pats Acres) so could use the kart fairly frequently and would use it predominantly in the off-season to prepare for the Spring/Summer.

Thanks so much for your feedback.

/Rich

I have driven a kart (non-shifter) a couple of times.. I walked away completely shaken, sweaty, and spent..

In reply to rcl4668:

I'm in the PDX area too and autocross. My 2 boys and I have used Sykart Indooor Karting quite a bit...I'd be embarassed and ashamed at how much money we've spent there at $10/session over the past few years. I like your idea of your own kart to use at Pat's Acres...outdoor racing and maybe thriftier in the long run. BTW, I found an online coupon for Pat's: http://tiny.cc/hfigi

I think you were at the last SCCA event, I meant to stop by to say hi, good to see more Miata's out there! You should really come up to Packwood next year. More fun, more speed than PIR!

I'd love a kart just because it's so damn much fun. I imagine it will make all of your cars seem very slow - like, nightmare-running-from-monsters-through-molasses slow. On the track, though, too much time to think is what we call a high class problem.

I have a hard time thinking you'll do your driving any harm from karting. Seat time is seat time, as long as you approach it with the right mindset.

Certainly getting into sport/track riding motorcycles has made me a better driver, just in terms of learning how to feel what each end of the vehicle is doing. To extend the analogy, I imagine dirt riding is to track time what karting is to autox: not necessarily literally translatable physically speaking, but still extremely useful for honing your mental skills.

I say you should do it for fun and to keep your senses sharp during the off season. Any benefit beyond that is icing on the cake.

I raced competition karts in the late 1970's. Open wheel racing forces you to concentrate on many many things that your brain would not normally have to. Best bang for the buck in racing AFAIC. Wheeel2Wheeel racing is the best kind !

My buddies and I used to frequent Andretti Speed Lab up in Alpharetta, GA as it's indoor and pricing was reasonable. I swear I learned more about cornering, braking, momentum preservation, etc here than anywhere else. The nice part was not having to spend big $$$ on real carts, and they had a faster race league you could get into. I'd see if your local track has something similar. Other upside to using someone else's cart is you don't have to repair it when it breaks down.

Put it this way - a lot of the recent F1 drivers started driving arts, so it clearly offers no benefits skills-wise .

I'm tempted to try karting myself as a cheaper alternative to HDPEs...

You learn a lot about racing, racing lines, passing etc by racing karts. I did it for a few years. first in Sr. Sportsman then in Rotax. You can buy a used, competitive Rotax powered kart for ~$3k and up. Best bang for the buck racing out there.

Thanks for the great feedback everyone.

And Jeff, I remember your red Miata at the PIR A/X. Were you there with your son? Also, I got to sample Packwood twice this summer and it was simply incredible.

In reply to rcl4668:

Yup, that was me and my son...he beat me the day before and this is his first year driving a car. He seems learn faster than his fat dad. Next year, I'm guessing I'll be his tire warmer. He started by karting...hmmm....

I've thought about it several times. My biggest concern is centers on whether my back could handle the abuse. I think it would be the perfect father/son activity (providing my son continues to like anything with a motor). Incidently we went to the local kart track this weekend. He was absolutely captivated by the karts. Pretty cool to see the five year old kids racing around the track.

BoxheadTim wrote: I'm tempted to try karting myself as a cheaper alternative to HDPEs...

I am in the same boat. The cost of entry is much lower, cost of maintenance is lower. Tires last forever and it would all fit including spares for the weekend in the back of the truck with the bed cover on.

Another side benefit, is that I think it helps the driver be more physically fit in comparison to other autosports.

My son runs a CRG chassis cadet with a Comer motor and I rented one of those Rotax single speed spec series karts last time we were out. It tops out around 90mph and makes enough G's that you feel like your head will come off after 30 minutes. I wasn't wearing a rib protector and my whole cage and along my spine was purple after 60 minutes of really flogging it. I was grinning all the way up to the point where I went to get out of bed the next day.

It's about a $5-8k entry point - making it only a little cheaper than an entry to Formula Ford. Either is pretty great - but one has dampers and springs. I think I'll leave the karts to the kids.

wearymicrobe wrote:

BoxheadTim wrote: I'm tempted to try karting myself as a cheaper alternative to HDPEs...

I am in the same boat. The cost of entry is much lower, cost of maintenance is lower. Tires last forever and it would all fit including spares for the weekend in the back of the truck with the bed cover on.

We went in a pickup with a topper on the back, unload kart and sleep in truck. Some of the best memories of my youth. Check out I.K.F. or W.K.A. sanctioning bodies.

sachilles wrote: Another side benefit, is that I think it helps the driver be more physically fit in comparison to other autosports.

That struck me as a huge benefit: The g-loading and core strength required for karting would just be another incentive to stay in shape. And I need all the incentive I can get.

jeffp wrote: In reply to rcl4668: Yup, that was me and my son...he beat me the day before and this is his first year driving a car. He seems learn faster than his fat dad. Next year, I'm guessing I'll be *his* tire warmer. He started by karting...hmmm....

Very cool Jeff. Are you doing the October PCA AX? If so, I'll see you there.

If you're concerned whether karting will help your driving skills, just consider that most F1 drivers started in karting, F1 being the pinnacle of driver skill. Braking, apexes, turn-ins etc are commonalities among all motor sports.

As a bonus, you'll end up spending way less money going karting than on tires, race fuel and the maintenance required for tracking your car.

And another bonus is you might find it actually more fun, pulling far more G's than you could realistically achieve in your car, and at a much quicker pace.

In reply to rcl4668:

Totally. The first thing that generally goes is the neck just trying to keep your head on straight in a turn. If the neck goes, your head tilts, and your vision goes as you try to look at the turn while basically looking down your nose. Then there's the ribs that get pushed hard into the sides of the seat, and your back providing extra effort to keep your body straight up.

Compared to a track day, I usually leave those with a spent mind, but not much in terms of physical soreness other than general exhaustion. From a karting day, I'll be hurting for the next day or two.

Good shopping resource http://ekartingnews.com/viewforum.php?f=42

Karting is a great sport in and of itself. If you're lucky, you may find a club that will let you autocross your kart, in addition to the track stuff you're talking about. There's often a kart from Maine Indoor Karting available for rental at Cumberland Motor Club autocrosses. I've done it a few times, and WOW, what an experience! At the end of a run the adrenaline was pumping many times more than usual. A kart is just so... basic. There's nothing to it. There's little to worry about with the machine - no spring rates or shock settings, because there IS no suspension! After driving a kart, my Miata felt like a Buick in comparison.

I agree about the family affair aspect, too. I've seen it done, and there may be a kart in my girlfriend's son's future - even better if I can drive it, too. I think it would be a great learning tool, and a great end in itself, too.

I've been autoxing for a few years and started time trialing last year. I started karting locally after the end of last autox season and I can say that I have certainly improved my driving. I'm better and more consistent at driving a technical line and I can more quickly pick up the line.

The downside is that they really beat the crap out of you.

Definately buy a kart, maybe one not so expensive though, so you're not so invested for when you want to do cars. I did about 12 races in a kart, and it made me a faster driver, which really translated to cars, and i was pretty comparative for lap times out of the box.

Either way, you'll have fun, Steven

It looks like I've done things backwards :). I started racing rotax four years ago at age 39. I chose karts over cars due to location and potential seat time. I am now looking into track car alternatives.

A few comments: running Rotax or other TAG classes will be more expensive than you think. Plan on replacing tires more often than you expect, and tinkering more than you expect to find that last tenth, make sure you have several hub lengths, axles of differing stiffness and various specialty tools. Also plan on blowing clutches, bending axles, steering shafts, etc. Budget tends to be ignored when you see your main rival throwing on a new set of tires before qualifying and you're staring at your 2 race-old slicks...

This said, it is a blast. Find a club with good turnouts, run with an engine and chassis with a lot of local track support and you'll find some great wheel-wheel racing. It does pound the crap out of you but that also makes stepping into a car easier at least from a physical standpoint.

btw - $8k will buy you a brand new turnkey CRG package. If I did it all over again, I'd buy lightly used at half that price. Talk to guys at the local track to see what guys are running and what brands are supported locally. You don't want to be the only guy running a Tony Kart when everyone else has CRG chassis because the local dealers at the track will only carry CRG parts.

Karting is a great learning tool, and its fun all by itself. It is a much more physical activity than driving a street car.

However, don't underestimate the time and $ required to keep one running well.