Keeping an LS3 alive road racing w/o dry sump?

I am also interested, as I blew up a 5.3 in less than one hour of track use, and I am going to put another 5.3 in that car.

In reply to Racebrick :

What was the setup? Baffled pan? 

This seems to be the trend I've been told, it's either it blew up immediately or it was untouched for years.

Note that our experience is mostly with LS3s, but I did run a weird 5.3 that had LS6 heads for a while. From what I've heard, there was a difference in how the Gen 3 and Gen 4 engines dealt with oil draining at high G, the later ones were more problematic. Which, of course, is what most of ours have been.

This is the one I watched before, though he's a drifter, not a grip driver.... Still pretty good lateral 

Don't take his advice on air intake placement. Serious power loss right there.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Lol, he uses a Corvette intake on his car - like the flyin Miata kit (maybe is, not sure). That's just for the thumbnail me thinks, I've never seen that car on his channel.

Ive also been told the earlier LSs  (atleast in vettes) had better oil control for track use. Specifically the LS6s in stock form they are pretty good track setups, but when you go to the later generations they become more problematic. Id assume thats why GM went to dry sump on pretty much anything marketed for track. Even the z51 C7s have a dry sump.

I still see quite a few wet sump setups on c6 race cars, with similar oiling mods like you mentioned with anecdotal success.

If you mentioned it i missed it, what tires are you running? On a street tire its a whole different world than a track tire.

Were I going to use a wet sump on an LS3 (PARTICULARLY an LS3, as they have the absolute WORST reputation for being oil starvers), I would want at a minimum the following:

1. Baffles/traps.

2. Batwing or some other mondo pan.

3. Pressure accumulator (Accusump or equivalent).

4. ECU with low-pressure shutdown capability and oil pressure datalogging.

5. 200tw tires or harder.

6. VERY limited track time/short sessions.

I've heard so, so , so many horror stories about we sumped LS3s losing lubrication, even ones that used countermeasures. I've heard practically zero horror stories about dry sumped LS3s. I think the bottom line is these engines have an inherent flaw, and there's one way to fix the flaw permanently and effectively. Anything else is still gambling to some extent.

EDIT: Just went back and re-read your post, and I had previously missed the phrase "relentlessly abused on track." Um, you kind of answered your own question there. If you're going in knowing you're going to be hammering the E36 M3 out of it, give it a realistic shot at survival from the get go.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

What's fundamentally different about the LS3 oiling system compared to other LS engines that makes them more prone to failing? I'm putting a batwing pan on the LM4 in my Challenge car, but so far, that's the only "precaution" I'm taking, and then only because I needed it to fit.

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

Bummer - Are there any dry-sump system that don't start at the majority of the cost of the engine than? I'm not seeing one that's less than 5k. 

DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

What's fundamentally different about the LS3 oiling system compared to other LS engines that makes them more prone to failing? I'm putting a batwing pan on the LM4 in my Challenge car, but so far, that's the only "precaution" I'm taking, and then only because I needed it to fit.

I've never been able to get a clear answer on that. But the typical oiling issues that all LSs have (oil pooling in passenger side valve cover with insufficient drainback) seem to be worse on LS3s than other variants. Not sure if this is something inherent in the issues, or there's more reports because there's more engines out there or what. 

I think it's a Gen 4 vs Gen 3 thing, not LS3 vs "all others". The LS3 is simply the most common variant of the Gen 4.

Best description I've seen of the LS7 oil system is "damp sump" :) Packaging a full dry sump in a Miata is going to be a challenge. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

So uh .... whatcha doin' in your car? Seems like you see very high-g loads and run slicks?

That Taylor Ray guy has a dry sump on his ls miata:

 

I don't tend to watch YouTube videos due to poor ROI on time invested so I haven't watched the video links - I'm sure it can be done, but it will be a challenge. Does Taylor have an interior?

My car runs the FM pan. All the cars built by FM run the FM pan.

The enduro car I mentioned earlier has evolved since we built it. I have no idea if he's still just running the pan, but that was the case when he first started racing it a few years back. It's active in the NASA Great Lakes region.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/under-the-hood-v8-miata-with/159436/page1/

In reply to Keith Tanner :

He put his tank in the trunk actually - Not arguing, just sharing what I've seen. Less than ideal, but I'm not sure there's anywhere else to do it in a miata- engine bay is way too small.

Part of the reason for me wanting to avoid dry sump was expense, part complexity - Though changing expensive motors frequently is a nightmare scenario for me. 

buuuuummmmer

Yeah the big packaging issue with a dry sump usually isn't the pump, since you can mount that in various places in the accessory zone. But finding room for the tank can be a pain, especially if you want to keep it under the hood. If you don't mind going inside the car, or to the trunk, life gets a LOT easier.

accordionfolder said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

He put his take in the trunk actually - Not arguing, just sharing what I've seen. Less than ideal, but I'm not sure there's anywhere else to do it in a miata- engine bay is way too small.

Part of the reason for me wanting to avoid dry sump was expense, part complexity - Though changing expensive motors frequently is a nightmare scenario for me. 

buuuuummmmer

The "trick" to putting it in the trunk is getting it high enough and using big enough lines. 
    It adds weight over the rear wheels which is a good thing but it's high up  which isn't.  
    The temptation is to run hose. You are better off running tube. ( less weight better flow ) it you use a short bit of hose at each end you won't have to worry about cracking the tube or the tank.  

Does anybody make a swivel pickup tube for the LS3?

In reply to frenchyd :

Guess I'm eating my words here Frenchy, looks more and more like a true dry sump will be necessary....

Cry once, buy once I suppose....

accordionfolder said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Guess I'm eating my words here Frenchy, looks more and more like a true dry sump will be necessary....

 

Cry once, buy once I suppose....

I'll be pissed if my $300 LS goes kablooey, how much worse would you feel with what you're building? The dry sump is probably good insurance.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

Well, to be clear I always wanted a dry sump - just not sure I can afford a dry sump. Though by the looks of it, with this kind of build I can't afford to NOT use a dry sump. Though I think that Aviaid setup doesn't look too bad assuming I can sell my pan. 

All my swap parts came in a big bundle another guy was liquidating, so I got a really good deal on them. 

accordionfolder said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Guess I'm eating my words here Frenchy, looks more and more like a true dry sump will be necessary....

 

Cry once, buy once I suppose....

He may have been right, but he didn't know why. You wanted to know why, which I think is the best way to approach problems like this. Personally, I wouldn't want to add the complexity and extra failure points of a wet sump system to my car unless I knew exactly what I needed it for.

Dry sump is not the easy button by any stretch just FYI. I went wet sumped on my LS1 build (racing pan, accusump) and ran trouble free for a couple years while my buddy (built LS7) sorted his custom dry sump through an absolute mess of oil leaks/crankcase pressure/blowby issues getting him black flagged continuously due to excessive smoking. I am running NT01/RC01 tire compounds so definitely not racing slick levels of grip but have been happy so far although need to get data to backup soon once I can pull logs from my AIM dash. 

Dry sump solutions are not plug and play and can come with the headache of random issues but you may be plenty qualified to handle just providing anecdotal experience you can trash can. 

Keith Tanner said:

Don't take his advice on air intake placement. Serious power loss right there.

Sorry for the OT but can you elaborate? Do you have to re-tune with the corvette style intake? Power level increase based on that style intake? 

Mine is a 90 off the TB so am just curious.

In reply to Olemiss540 :

You said custom, did he roll his own? 

https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ls-engine-systems.html

These systems seem reasonable?