aussiesmg wrote: Did you consider rotating the tires during the weekend?

The Dunlop he was using is a directional tread, and I suspect the Boxster uses staggered tire sizes. So rotating wouldn't have been an option in this case.

The Nitto NT-01 doesn't need shaving to avoid chunking because it's an R-compound. It's designed to be run much hotter than a street tire and it has massive tread blocks and a fairly low tread depth. Basically, it's designed for this sort of use. It could be the NT-05 is designed to be more biased towards the track than the street and it's better able to manage the heat of a track day at full depth, I don't know.

Tire Rack will heat-cycle tires, but I don't know if they'll shave them for you. Here's what they have to say about shaving: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=67&

I can totally understand why the Tire Rack would not replace tires that are raced or performance-driven in any way. Can you imagine what drifting or extreme rock crawling could do to tires in just a day? Neither is technically "racing."

I also run Thunderhill in my 3rd gen RX7 in HPDE events. 300 rwhp (at low boost) and 2800 lbs (wet no driver). I'm running Konis and have run a few different spring setups but am currently on Ground Control coilovers with a very good alignment from Custom Alignment here in Mountain View.

I am currently running the Dunlop Star Specs in 255/40/17 all around. Ran Kumho MX before that. I haven't gotten any chunking on either tire. I've only run the Dunlop at Thill one weekend this year but ran the Kumho at 8 or so weekends at various tracks around CA last year. I have never chunked a tire on this car. I attribute that to a good working suspension and a great alignment. I have chunked tires on an old A1 VW and cars with limited alignment adjustability.

Might want to check out your suspension and alignment.

if you would have bought the tire at a local store (like sams club or whatever) they would have almost certainly honored the full warranty and given you a prorated mileage towards a new tire. they wouldn't ask if it had been pounded or taken to the track.

based on that... I'd say buy your tires somewhere local that will honor the warranty instead of mail order.

And my experience is that tire rack's prices (regular non sale prices) are typically within a shade of what local tire stores charge anyway.

I'd think that alignment played a part in the tire wear too. A couple of lapping days can take a huge toll on tires, especially if it's a street car being driven by a less experienced driver.

How many times have you seen a novice driver PUNISH the front tires by understeering their way around a course? Blame Dunlop if you must, but it's not Tire Rack's fault that these tires chunked under the conditions you describe.

andrave wrote: And my experience is that tire rack's prices (regular non sale prices) are typically within a shade of what local tire stores charge anyway.

Better tell my local shops. Last time I checked, it was nearly triple the price to buy local instead of TR! After that experience, I haven't bothered checking.

A good shop would identify the chunking as the result of abuse, and probably would have denied the warranty claim as well. And as I said, the warranty is actually held by Dunlop, so you could approach them. But as soon as someone who knows tires sees the tire, they'll recognize what was done to it.

^ Yes. If you truly felt it was an issue with the tire itself, you can take it to any Dunlop dealer and have it warrantied.

My 2-cents is that you were racing on these tires. Calling it something else is just semantics, racing against other cars, the clock, your personal best or just going as fast as you possibly can is racing in my book...especially on a track where you have to sign waivers to drive.

That said, it sounds like you have experience with the track, the car, and other tires and felt that these wore prematurely. I have a background in engineered elastomeric products and I would only warranty against manufacturing defects such as delamination, never against wear on the wear surfaces. They are designed to wear out eventually, I can't guarantee how long it will take. However, if a customer was used to getting a certain amount of wear from an item, and one suddenly wore in a fraction of that time, I would work with them to find out why and see if I could make them a deal. 50% off on a replacement would have been the best I could do.

slefain wrote: Hope you looked at the brakes too, I bet those are defective as well.

No they're just fine, thanks for asking. They wear as expected (one set of Pagids Orange about every 3 ~ 4 track days) HOWEVER: If I had a brand new set of rotors and brake pads and they would start to fall into pieces after two days, hell yes, I would wonder if there is something else going on than just wear & tear

To all posters, thanks for all your input. I actually think that most of you didn't catch that I was more upset that TireRack wouldn't even provide warranty for dedicated race tires, than the $100 that I had to pay. However it seems that 90% of all posters feel that when you're on the track, for DE/TT or real racing you basically are on your own and whatever damage happens is your problem and not someone else's. Never though about it that way, but I think you guys are having a good point. About the advise to buy a Miata: Man, all my Miata buddies are trying convince me and it's a GREAT car (specially when supercharged), but if anyone of you have ever seen the Porsche commercial where the 12 year old boy walks into the dealership and promises to come back 20 years later,.Well, that could have been me. I am a Porsche fan as long as I could say the word "Auto" and I am driving my dream car as a daily driver and as a "weekend racer" Notably a Boxster is certainly NOT a show-off Porsche (they're as "exotic" as a Honda Civic where I live (Northern CA) I just love the car, the handling and I will stick with it. And yes I will buy a dedicated set of track wheels

Again, thanks for your time and for sharing your mind with me

gotta agree. Man you took all the comments well, you seem like a class act!

I did notice your concern on the race tires, in your original post.

docwyte wrote: If you'd blown out a side wall or the tire had de-laminated, that would've been a defect. You have nothing to complain about.

unless it's a BS RE01-R.... then tough luck

plus as several others have noted... no one but no one will give a warranty on race tires

willy19592 wrote: gotta agree. Man you took all the comments well, you seem like a class act!

Thanks dude, much appreciated

Race tires are generally measured not in miles run but in heat cycles. Most racers measure not only their tire pressures before and after a session but also the heat rises during the course of a session. Yes, part of that procedure is for alignment purposes but also to keep up with the stresses of its use.
Two consecutive days of track use while full-tread is impressive. You might have been able to stretch the tire's life thru careful tire management but generally you got the bulk of the tire's life thru that weekend.

Hatzenbach,

Who do you run with and what group do you run in (intermediate, advanced, instructor)? Just curious since we both have cars with good chassis and I've never killed this type of tire the way you said you did. Hopefully I don't either. :)

Hatzenbach wrote: However it seems that 90% of all posters feel that when you're on the track, for DE/TT or real racing you basically are on your own and whatever damage happens is your problem and not someone else's. Never though about it that way, but I think you guys are having a good point.

We have a winner! Yep. That's how it works.

Don't bring anything to the track that you are not prepared to throw away.

Only possible exception is if another driver does something flagrantly boneheaded that directly causes damage to your car (e.g. driving too aggressively and making contact). Then common courtesy dictates that the offending party compensate you. But it's the responsibility of both parties to come up with a mutually acceptable arrangement.

About the advise to buy a Miata: Man, all my Miata buddies are trying convince me and it's a GREAT car (specially when supercharged)... I am a Porsche fan as long as I could say the word "Auto"...

Welcome to the board. Although my advice is genuine, that was also meant as a friendly joke. If you hang around this board for a little while, you'll learn that "Miata" is always the answer.

Yes, I know Boxsters are relatively common around NorCal. I live in Sacramento. That doesn't make them inexpensive to replace. If you really like Porsches, the 944 makes a very affordable dedicated track car. It's not going to be the same animal as a Boxster though. If you enjoy driving it, keep at it. I personally would not want to cover the expense of even paint damage on a Boxster, let alone be willing to write one off.

Sounds like you're on the right track as far as dedicated tires for different uses. Don't forget that alignment though. It will get you more out of the tires.

Hopefully I will run into you at some events. Who do you usually run with? I tend to drive with Golden Gate Lotus, NCRC, and NASA and Auto-X with SVR PCA.

Hatzenbach wrote: the Porsche commercial where the 12 year old boy walks into the dealership and promises to come back 20 years later...

That was the best car commercial ever! If I owned a Porsche, I would certainly take that car to the track every opportunity I had. I tried to buy one, but when I looked under the hood, I found that someone had removed the engine...

Tire Rack is also at the mercy of whether or not the manufacturer will warranty the tire. I see this all the time at the shop where I write service. I install an A/C compressor, the customer comes back and says it doesn't work. My tech tests it and finds that the compressor is faulty. Now I'm stuck in the middle and so is the supplier. I have to prove (on the phone) that the compressor is faulty, AND do so with enough conviction and evidence that the supplier feels confident that the manufacturer will warranty the part once I send it back.

Tire Rack will obviously be trepidatious at first and look for possible reasons to not have to warranty a tire. If they just roll over and give you a new tire and the manufacturer doesn't reimburse money, Tire Rack would be constantly giving out free tires.

I must add that my Uncle works for Tire Rack and I'm not blindly defending them, I'm merely giving you a counterpoint. A full 65% of their business is custom fitments. Many times they sell a custom wheel/tire combo to someone who insists that it will fit their car, it ends up not fitting, and both the wheel AND tire manufacturer won't accept returns on parts that have been mounted. Its logical for them to be even MORE selective on warranty repairs than the manufacturer. If they weren't, they would be footing the bill for millions of dollars in replacement tires that the manufacturer didn't cover. Keep in mind that Tire Rack is the middle man. They can't make money if they're making snap decisions to replace a race-type tire used in a non-street application just because the customer says it failed during normal use.

Its much like my job. I have a repair right now where the customer ordered a new window regulator for their civic and found they were in over their head. We opened the package to install it only to find that the regulator is the wrong part. Honda won't take the part back, the customer thinks its our responsibility, and I'm stuck in the middle trying to resolve it.

I don't mean to belittle your loss, but seriously... you're using a race type tire on a race track for the purpose of training drivers in non-street situations... or at the very least, constantly simulating the worst possible street maneuvers. That is hardly normal wear and tear.

Manufacturers warranty street tires because 90% of them are used in a predictable street manner. The 10% of idiot teenagers who try to race on touring tires doesn't affect their bottom line. Race tires don't typically get warrantied because they are subjected to all kinds of abuse. True, your DE event doesn't necessarily mean that you abused tires, but there is no way that Tire Rack can trust a customer's word. If Tire Rack sends back a tire to Dunlop and says (basically) "this tire was used in a track event, but it wasn't raced, and this outside front tire got damaged," guess who pays the bill to warranty your tire... Tire Rack.

That's kinda like if you sued the 7-11 for selling you the pack of Marlboros that caused your cancer. Don't blame the middle man. This boils down to something between you (and your use of the tire) and the manufacturer.

And remember that we are not on this board to incite beating of new members (we take that pretty seriously) I commend everyone on this thread for their civility.

That being said...

Wear items should not be warranted for spirited driving. Tires, brakes, oils, clutches, etc. were all exempt when I budgeted for a build. I expected them all to fail and I didn't even try to warrant them (even clutches and brakes from Dangerzone). It's not fair to the company that sold them to you.

Any non wear mechanical shouldn't fail, and I have been known to pretzel a control arm and try to warrant it.

1 dont get a Miata to save tires. Their too damn slow. they attract flies and they are chick cars. I wouldnt park next to you any more at events either if you drove a Miata.

2 It is reasonable to expect a good retailer to stand behind their products. Chucking tires regardless of abuse are sign of poor quality. Clearly Tire Rack aknowleged an issue with this tire.

3 I would reccomend sticking with DOT R tires for track days. I never have had good luck with street tires even on lightweight cars like my 914. Contrary to popular belief here your Boxster isnt 1000 lbs more than a Miata. And if you were truly worried about weight of your car you could do a few things to bring it down to Miata weights. My Boxster weighs roughly 2200 lbs now. Never had a tire problem in the Box yet.

boxsterbuddy wrote: #2 It is reasonable to expect a good retailer to stand behind their products. Chucking tires regardless of abuse are sign of poor quality. Clearly Tire Rack aknowleged an issue with this tire.

Dear Porsche Dealership,

I am writing you regarding premature failure of suspension components on my new Boxster, which you have refused to uphold the warranty on.

I Purchased a new Boxster from you two weeks ago to use at an offroad stage rally this past weekend. After a weekend of such use, I inspected the car and noticed significant damage to a number of the suspension components.

My control arms should not be bent, and there should not be cracking around shock mounts after less than a month with the car. The service mechanic commented that it did not look right.

Clearly this is a sign of poor quality in your workmanship. You aught to stand behind your products and replace your components that failed prematurely. The fact that you offered to replace them for 50% off is just not satisfactory.

Signed,

A Disgruntled Porsche Fanatic

Dear GM,

I purchased a new Z06 Corvette and the fuel mileage sticker said I should get 15 mpg city and 24 mpg highway. I only drive this vehicle on sundays and on extended road trips and it seems that I can only get 9 mpg as I am driving it on a Road in Atlanta.

I feel this is a dereliction of your duties and as a taxpayer and stockholder in your company I expect you to lemon law this vehicle and give me three new $100,000 cars for the hassle.

PS the OE tires sucked too.

...Funny but not the same as a tire chunking at a DE. I know hatzenback and he has a decent car, is a fairly expereinced track driver, smooth driver, etc. He wasnt rally driving or drifting.

Have a read of Tire Racks discription of the tire they call out drifting and track driving as an activity that this tire is designed for. I would expect the tire to not chunk:

The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is Dunlop's Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for serious sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan enthusiasts looking for race tire-like traction on the street or for use in autocross, drifting and track events. The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is for drivers who don’t want to wait as long for their tires to come in during initial runs, as well as drivers of lighter weight vehicles who are often confronted with the task of working tire temperatures up to the point of generating peak grip.

As an evolution of the Direzza Sport Z1 and continuing to use the same tread design, the Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec tread compound helps provide faster lap times from the start by developing more traction in temperate temperatures along with consistent grip on subsequent laps when the tires are fully warmed up. While this means the Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec tread compound accommodates a wider operating temperature range than the original Direzza Sport Z1 and reaches its maximum grip level faster, Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec summer tires are not intended to be driven through snow, on ice or in near-freezing temperatures.

Seems to me if Tire Rack were concerned about track driving on these tires they wouldnt reccomend them?

Dunlop also bills these as hard core performance tires for the track

If you abuse a tool. Do not be surprised when it fails.

boxsterbuddy wrote: The Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec is Dunlop's Extreme Performance Summer tire developed ... for use in autocross, drifting and track events.

Dear Tire Rack,

I purchased a pair of your Direzza tires. After less than a day of drifting I discovered that the tread was chunking and separating from the cord. A set of tires should not fail in less than a day.

Your product description clearly lists drifting as an activity these tires are suited for, and yet they were not able to survive it.

Clearly this constitutes a defect in the product you sell. I demand you honor the warranty on these tires and replace them.

boxsterbuddy wrote: ...Funny

That's what I was going for.