Land Rover Defender

alfadriver wrote: Seems to be a rather obvious business opportunity here. Do a Wheeler Dealer search in Europe for cars that you can bring back. Get enough containers, put on boat, wait. Sell for profit.

There's a thread on here a couple of years ago where I looked into this.

Cliff notes.

I started down the road when I found that the 93-97 (I think) vehicles were exempt from the 25 year rule. I then saw that one’s originally sold here were fetching $70-90K and got all excited about bringing them in and making a killing.

The truth is as usual not that simple. First vehicles that are exempt (there are others such as early Miata's etc.) have to be brought into compliance by DOT certified conversions shops. they must bring them in and do the work for you. They charge big bucks for this obviously, because they can. Then, when you look at the price of legally imported 93-97 vehicles they are worth significantly less than ones originally sold here. the final nail in the coffin is sellers in the UK and Europe are aware of the exemption years. If you start searching e-bay etc. over there you will often see them advertised as 'Legal for importing into America' with a much higher price tag than pre 93 or post 98+ vehicles as many are obviously coming this way. I did the math and it just wasn’t' worth the hassle.

25 year old vehicles that are legal also are often advertised as '25 years old, legal for importing to America' as well. If you really want to bring one in, my advice is buy one that is 23-24 years old and find someone to store it. Get a build sheet to prove its day of build and once it hits 25 years exactly start the process to import it legally.

One the Petrol Vs Diesel thing. While by the 90's there were more oil burning clatter wagons than petrol, back in the 80's there were still more V8's. While they have a bad rap over here, they are seen by many in the UK as the equivalent of our SBF or SBC's They are dead simple and run and run and run.

We had Land Rovers in our family as DD's from eh 80's until I left the UK in 94. They were as reliable as gravity, but these tended to be van's with zero creature comforts to go wrong, we even had to fit radio/cassettes in most of them as they did come with them, or if they did they were just a single speaker radio only.

Oh, and if you have to get an evil oil burner death rattle engine instead of a real engine, for the flying spaghetti monsters sake make sure you get one with a magic spinning snail of awesome on the side. The non turbo ones 0-60 are used as the standard international units of geological time.

Keith, I know for the rare person like you who is 99.7% off road then the oil burners have some perverse use. But for anyone who actually wants to get to work before they are fired for chronic absenteeism then they are useless.

Oh, I'm assuming that diesel = 200 Tdi or 300 Tdi. Yeah, the old 2.25 and 2.5 diesels were impressive in their performance - especially in a LWB carrying case. I'm not sure if they actually came in Defenders (as opposed to Series vehicles), but it's not an era I've paid much attention to.

The Defender is basically the F150 of the UK. The majority are work trucks, AFAIK.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Seems to be a rather obvious business opportunity here. Do a Wheeler Dealer search in Europe for cars that you can bring back. Get enough containers, put on boat, wait. Sell for profit.

There's a thread on here a couple of years ago where I looked into this. Cliff notes. I started down the road when I found that the 93-97 (I think) vehicles were exempt from the 25 year rule. I then saw that one’s originally sold here were fetching $70-90K and got all excited about bringing them in and making a killing. The truth is as usual not that simple. First vehicles that are exempt (there are others such as early Miata's etc.) have to be brought into compliance by DOT certified conversions shops. they must bring them in and do the work for you. They charge big bucks for this obviously, because they can. Then, when you look at the price of legally imported 93-97 vehicles they are worth significantly less than ones originally sold here. the final nail in the coffin is sellers in the UK and Europe are aware of the exemption years. If you start searching e-bay etc. over there you will often see them advertised as 'Legal for importing into America' with a much higher price tag than pre 93 or post 98+ vehicles as many are obviously coming this way. I did the math and it just wasn’t' worth the hassle. 25 year old vehicles that are legal also are often advertised as '25 years old, legal for importing to America' as well. If you really want to bring one in, my advice is buy one that is 23-24 years old and find someone to store it. Get a build sheet to prove its day of build and once it hits 25 years exactly start the process to import it legally. One the Petrol Vs Diesel thing. While by the 90's there were more oil burning clatter wagons than petrol, back in the 80's there were still more V8's. While they have a bad rap over here, they are seen by many in the UK as the equivalent of our SBF or SBC's They are dead simple and run and run and run. We had Land Rovers in our family as DD's from eh 80's until I left the UK in 94. They were as reliable as gravity, but these tended to be van's with zero creature comforts to go wrong, we even had to fit radio/cassettes in most of them as they did come with them, or if they did they were just a single speaker radio only.

by the time you left in 94.. the biggest v8 was the 3.9. That engine -is- as reliable as gravity. It is the later 4.0 and 4.6 that were bombs waiting to go off.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Here's another question- much like Henry Ford deciding to grow his own trees. What's the requirement to be a DOT approved shop?

That way, one can incorporate that into your total budget.

It's not as if this board doesn't have a LOT of very skilled shop people.

In reply to alfadriver:

There's a PDF called "How to become a registered importer" on this page on the NHTSA web site.

There's not much point getting excited about being able to import 93-97 models with DOT approval these days, as they'll start to become legal under the 25 year rule in two years.

Basically, it's just like the Mini import business. 25-year-old cars demand a premium because they can be imported, and there are certainly people making some money. The biggest problem with the LR import business is that a 1990 Defender isn't a luxury vehicle, but those who are willing to pay significant money are going to want luxury. Those who want an off-roader will probably bring in their own.

alfadriver wrote: Seems to be a rather obvious business opportunity here. Do a Wheeler Dealer search in Europe for cars that you can bring back. Get enough containers, put on boat, wait. Sell for profit.

All the defenders I've seen lately were being trucked out of the port in Jacksonville. Saw some cool pickup ones.

Keith Tanner wrote: The biggest problem with the LR import business is that a 1990 Defender isn't a luxury vehicle, but those who are willing to pay significant money are going to want luxury. Those who want an off-roader will probably bring in their own.

Yep the inside of all the Defenders I've personally seen is shockingly spartan and retro by modern standards, it's like a time warp back into a '50s military vehicle. Very reminiscent of a Willys GP now that I think of it.

Doing a GIS, I see some that have modern-ish looking interiors, I don't know when those rolled out.

There are a number of parts in a Defender that will swap into a Series Land Rover from 1958 Doors, for example.

Thank you for countering anecdotal opinion with actual fact.

I'd never own a Jeep myself, but I've had many. The ones I had were Govt. issue for my job. Despite loathing them, some were quite good off road. Others had less off road prowess than my Honda Accord. My biggest gripe with Jeep (and Chrysler in general) is the lack of quality and reliability. My 43 year old Land Rover requires less repair than some of the Jeeps in our fleet. We have probably 30-40 Jeeps right now ranging from Libertys all the way up to Grand Cherokees. I've seen 100s come and go, so it's not simply "one time I saw a Wrangler breakdown or get stuck". For our purposes (off road field work/coal mine and river inspections) they just aren't as good as other vehicles. That said, I've only ever had one Land Rover, but the later ones do have bad reputation when it comes to reliability.

But the original point of this thread was: why are Defenders so expensive? Basic supply and demand. Market dictates value not whether something is "good" "bad" or "worth it".

Keith Tanner wrote: I'll bet there are a lot of poseur Jeeps, G-wagens and Land Cruisers in DC as well - if you can't drive off-road, then anything with ground clearance and all wheel drive is going to be for impressing other people only.

GameboyRMH wrote: They're great for overland type use or as a work truck, but in sheer offroad capability they're actually not as good as a similarly set up Wrangler or Samurai. They do weigh a metric berkeleyton after all - that's not good for offroad performance. The sheer size of them limits where they can go as well.

2015 Land Rover Defender 90: 3739 lbs, 153" long x 71" wide. 2016 Jeep Wranger: starts at 3879 lbs, 164" long x 74" wide. FYI. The 110 is, of course, bigger and heavier - but so is the Wrangler Unlimited. We've already had the "which is better offroad" discussion in this forum, which basically showed itself to be Mustang vs Camaro.

Wow I didn't know they had skyrocketed in price. A local dentist has and extremely clean later model black defender with a manual and diesel, he's had it for years and I see it up close at the yearly euro car show, he drives it often but DANG!! Considering how clean it is and those prices, I'd call it a $100,000-$150,000 truck. Good lord that's crazy

It's also probably illegal. They haven't been sold here since 1997 and never with a diesel. I'll bet if you check the VIN it shows up as a Series truck.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Yeah I knew we never got the diesel. His is lhd as well and I didn't check the vin or anything. I assumed it was from Canada or something considering how much he taunts it around but heck it maybe an illegal import. Who knows it maybe crushed already :(( damn I loved that truck and I'm not a truck "guy"