Last Years For Decent Analog Cars?

Nockenwelle said:

Domestics in the 90s were a frustrating mix of trying too hard to modernize old E36M3 while not being smart enough about the new tech they were rolling in, plus not giving a damn about interiors or build quality. Reference: GM's OBD 1.5 and the ubiquitous pile of plastic panels as an excuse for a creature space. Plus, the new cars didn't last any longer than the old stuff yet. By the time the garbage was removed from the offerings in general, time had passed and tech took over, making them too "new" for me. Therefore, my interest stops in the late 80s because newer gets you nothing enticing.

My OLDEST vehicle is my 2002 Suburban 2500 8.1 liter tow rig. It's about as old a vehicle as I want (I've been driving since '78 and have had over 130 cars, some as old as the '30s so I have a pool of comparisons to go by). The Suburban has over 150k on it and simply works. I've had older trucks as tow rigs, and I'll never go backwards. So you're arbitrary stopping point of the '80s is, while a fine choice for you, misguided and factually flawed. You do get a lot as you go newer. But even the Suburban is too old and thirsty to be used as a daily driver. I don't know how much longer I want to keep it.

In fact, for daily driver cars, I'll definitely never go backwards. Even basic new(er) cars handle, stop, and accelerate better, more reliably, safely, with less fuel usage than old "analog" cars that have to be constantly tinkered with. Some here say the tinkering is the good bit and that they aren't scared of dealing with points and carbs with all their problems. I say, the moment I HAVE to tinker with the daily driver again to get to work the next day, it's sold. Yeah, weekend cars and project toys can be anything. (though for me, even my weekend car should work when I want it to, not when IT wants to. Too many years of project cars sitting waiting for this week's failure point to be addressed before driving it again...). But daily driver cars? After 45 years of driving, my EV is the best at being a car I've ever had. Comfortable, quick (instant throttle response is addictive), good handling for what it is (a practical crossover), cheap for a new car and damn cheap to own and operate/fuel.

I love good analog cars, too (I love all cars, of all eras) but I'm also realistic about them.

In reply to Tom1200 :

So you can start the car and immediately go driving without any problems?  And I mean drive away at any temp above 0 F in 15 seconds. 

This has been on my mind a lot lately. 

What is the era car I want to build for my next daily driver. New enough for things like R134A, old enough to be considered a modern classic, manual transmission stuff exists for the chassis to swap in. OBDwhatever doesn't matter as it would get a standalone EFI system.

I think I have settled on the BMW E34 chassis. Preferably a touring but I could rock a sedan too. 

I had a 1972 Blazer in the 80's. It had air conditioning, lots of power and comfortable seats. I put a lot of miles on it and really enjoyed driving it. I wonder if I would today or would I hate it? Right now I have a 2022 Grand Cherokee and I really enjoy driving it as well. I might hate that if I had to return to it in twenty or thirty years

In reply to wae :

I don't see LED monitors going bad in 20-30 years as an issue. By then fixing those will be a simple task for people. And if they lasted that long then they probably lasted longer than most parts on "analog cars" from the 90 and before. Ya'll fear tech in current cars because ya'll aren't as comfortable with tech as current and future generations are. I much rather deal with efi and computers than carbs and older bosch injection systems. I cant remember the last time a modern device that I use like my phone, tv, etc going bad because of the tech. Usually it's because of being dropped. If you have the correct tools/software for any era of car, DIY becomes less scary. 

alfadriver said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

So you can start the car and immediately go driving without any problems?  And I mean drive away at any temp above 0 F in 15 seconds. 

No, I live in the desert. LOL

I once took the Datsun out on track with an ambient temp of 28F.  My Datsun has no choke so you have to pump the gas pedal about 6-7 times. You can drive it away within 15 seconds; by the time the oil/water comes up to temp so have the carbs. We are taking all of a lap. Also of note is the pilot and idle mixture screws are set rich.  

EFI is way better due to it's instant A/F ratio adjustment but proper carbs work really well.  I've yet to own a fuel injected motorcycle (I stopped street riding about 12-15 years ago). All of my street bikes would fire straight away and you could ride off.  

I've always found motorcycle carbs to be way better than automotive carbs. The Keihins I'm using on the Datsun are way better than any Webers. The Keihin on my Beta is flawless.

I think my NSX is the perfect balance and one of the things I like about it is that it is analog, being designed in the 80s and 90s and built in 2005.  Nothing is automated, you feel the actual mechanics of the shifter and steering and can feel and hear the engine, it is all very engaging.  It also has more modern EFI and good ABS and headlights and the AC reliably works and it is all durable.  Sure, the nearly new Mercedes and Escalade are better for long trips and the daily slog, but the engagement level v hardship level of the NSX is just right overall, especially as a fun car. 

In reply to yupididit :

What's that thing they say?  Most people are talking about having their internet-connected watch, voice-activated TVs, and all that stuff.  Meanwhile the IT professional has a regular Timex, an old tube TV, and a hammer sitting next to the router in order to be able to take it out in a hurry.

I'm not necessiarily against the technology, per se.  I have no desire to ever touch a carb or points ever again in my life and I'm a pretty big fan of things like adaptive cruise control and all that kind of stuff.  I just don't see things like LED screens lasting for that kind of time.  I really hope you're right and that being able to repair those sorts of things takes off, but I'm just not convinced that a lot of these types of electronics are going to send otherwise good cars to early deaths.

 For me it's cable throttles that divide analog from digital.

wae said:

I just don't see things like LED screens lasting for that kind of time.  I really hope you're right and that being able to repair those sorts of things takes off, but I'm just not convinced that a lot of these types of electronics are going to send otherwise good cars to early deaths.

It used to be that otherwise good cars went to early deaths because of corrosion, so this feels like an improvement.

In reply to wae :

LED screens are so simple and do not acquire the same type of wear and tear that mechanical parts do. They are rather durable and are usually dust and waterproof and can withstand up to 100k hours of usage time. I think a HPFP, timing chains or a transmission will end a car way before an LED screen does. It's surprising to me that people would pick that particular item and other simple tech devices to be wary about, out of all things that can require significant repair in a vehicle....an LED screen will be the death of cars? 

And most IT professionals and tech-guy's tend to have a lot of tech at home. Certainly not a tube tv and hammer to hit a router lol Never heard that saying.

In reply to yupididit :

I work in IT and can attest to what you said; I will have my house connected with "smart devices" when I move into it. I do, however, enjoy older cars, but I also don't think a LED screen is going to be the death of a newer car. If it goes out during someone's ownership, you can always just swap in a new one I would think.

As a side note, I've repaired my own and family members' iPhones due to cracked screens or bad batteries, even though iPhones are seen as unrepairable. Just depends really on how much you're willing to learn about the tech I'd say.

I was just driving my 20 year old BMW with a screen in the center console. This particular BMW also can have a problem with pixels on the dash display going out.

I can buy a drop-in replacement for that center nav stack that looks almost identical and has all the stock functionality - PLUS it adds a bunch of stuff that didn't really exist 20 years ago. If the pixels go bad on the center display, I can get them fixed.

20 years ago, it was scary complicated. Now, it's an analog car. And it's got drive by wire on all 8 throttles :)

Keith Tanner said:

20 years ago, it was scary complicated. Now, it's an analog car.

Indeed.  The new tech has always worried people who didn't understand it, but as time goes by it becomes old, well-understood tech and it's the NEW stuff that's really scary. :)

As far as the complicated electronics/screens/HUDs/backup cameras/lane warnings/etc go, I suspect it'll be like any other complicated car parts -- as parts fail people will swap in replacements from salvage/junkyard cars, and for the popular cars there wil be enough aftermarket/enthusiast interest to come up with workarounds.  Those who bought rare/unpopular/particularly fragile cars will get left out, but then that's pretty much always the case.

My 2006 Express Van is pretty "analog."  It has EFI and ABS, but no nannies.  It doesn't even have the light in the mirrors to tell me someone is beside me.

I think that the late 80s was a great time... not so much because the cars were great out of the factory, but because they were the last of the carry-overs from the early 60s.  The sheer amount of parts-bin swappage between S, F, B, C, D, A, X, and Y-body cars was pretty epic.  B-body has changed very little since 1967 in chevy and 1964 in BOPC.  G-bodies can be easily fitted with any GM V6 or V8 using the parts bin.  Fox bodies were mutated into all kinds of platforms and share with Fairmonts, T-birds, Mustangs, etc.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

To me, that makes the 60's cars easier to own because the parts bins are so deep :) It doesn't make me want an 80's car with 60's tech, though.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I think the 90s were peak "pure" analog. I think the 2000s were peak "vehicles" in terms of performance/features/driving. By the time the 2010s came along, thats when things started being mandatory/required that had nothing to do with actual safety. Mandated backup cameras, driver assists for dummies (beyond Traction Control/ABS, like lane assist, automatic braking, etc), and most cars became electric power assisted instead of hydraulic power assisted. Cars of the 2010s/2020s are evaluated on a case by case basis.

A few examples Include:

90s - Golden era Hondas (EG/EK/DC2), NA/NB Miatas, 986 Boxsters

2000s - E46 3 Series/M, E90 3 Series/M,  NC Miata, 987 Cayman/Boxsters

2010s - FRS/BRZ Twins, ND Miata, Civic Si/Type R, 718 Cayman/Boxster

2020s - everything has mandatory driving assists and other stuff.

I am amused at your list, not because it is wrong (it very much isn't wrong), but because of the contemporary reviews.

The NB was soft and fat.  The E46 was the "Ultimate Parking Machine" because BMW softened and lightened all of the controls to be more Camry-friendly instead of a real enthusiasts' machine like the E30 or even the (fat, bloated) E36.  

Everything new is bad until the next generation, which makes the outgoing one seem better in hindsight 

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Happens with all "best of " list. Not many remember that Ty Cobb's hitting statistics will never be beaten, and that was a pretty dead ball era. There's no way I could really compare Fangio to any modern driver. 
 

And add to your point how disimissivr some of us (as in me) are of carbed vehicles. 

It i a rolling target. 

I would say that I WANT OBDII for anything I drive because of the ability to scan for issues. So early but not too early Miata.

I don't have an issue with my 2013 FRS but that said I am not one to explore features beyond the steering and pedals. Probably still on whatever radio station was on when I bought it. Sure there is electronics left on the table.

Mrs NOHOME just picked up a new Corolla. I love the chassis. I consider the car to be dangerous due to the electronic distractions that INSIST on communicating with the driver and are overwhelming to the point of being dangerous if you just made a ten year jump to a new car.  If someone told you 30 years ago that a TV screen in the front seat area was a thing, you would have laughed them out of town; now its the law.  I find it absurd that it does not provide a full diagnostic function if it is going to be there anyways. If it were my car, I would use the screen to hang post-it notes.

The dealer actually told a nice old lady who was there to pick up her Corolla that she had to come back after getting a cell phone with a data connection. THAT crossed a line for me. I also detest that the new electronics are trending more and more to subscription mode. 

I normally buy a new car shortly after Mrs NOHOME, but due to not seeing anything I like and not liking the electronic distractions, I think I will just drive the FRS until it dies. 

Pete

alfadriver said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Happens with all "best of " list. Not many remember that Ty Cobb's hitting statistics will never be beaten, and that was a pretty dead ball era. There's no way I could really compare Fangio to any modern driver. 
 

And add to your point how disimissivr some of us (as in me) are of carbed vehicles. 

I have been driving my carbureted car all week.

I like how it starts much more quickly and has better throttle response than my 25 years newer Motronic equipped car 

It also has *drumroll* MANUAL STEERING 

Sonic said:

I think my NSX is the perfect balance and one of the things I like about it is that it is analog, being designed in the 80s and 90s and built in 2005.  Nothing is automated, you feel the actual mechanics of the shifter and steering and can feel and hear the engine, it is all very engaging.  It also has more modern EFI and good ABS and headlights and the AC reliably works and it is all durable.  Sure, the nearly new Mercedes and Escalade are better for long trips and the daily slog, but the engagement level v hardship level of the NSX is just right overall, especially as a fun car. 

Pretty much this for me.

My Cayman is the best 2 person road trip car I have ever driven. At the same time I was very willing and ready to drive a Karmann Ghia home from San Diego to Portsmouth, NH solo for my wife if I had found one.

I'd almost kill for an NSX.

Seriously, people? Analog means non-computerized carbs or mechanical FI. So 1980 or so. I consider my '77 Grand Prix to be just about peak analog. If you don't like 70's smogger performance then peak analog has to be 1970, maybe a little bit later for some Euro stuff.

Uncle David (Forum Supporter) said:

Seriously, people? Analog means non-computerized carbs or mechanical FI. So 1980 or so. I consider my '77 Grand Prix to be just about peak analog. If you don't like 70's smogger performance then peak analog has to be 1970, maybe a little bit later for some Euro stuff.

I agree that would be the literal definition (although you could make a case for EFI controlled by an analog computer -- not that I know of anyone who's ever designed that).

That's not how it's used in the automotive press these days -- it usually seems to mean a car without lots of traction/stability/etc control nannies.  One that goes where you point it (for better or worse), not where it thinks you want it to go.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I think the 90s were peak "pure" analog. I think the 2000s were peak "vehicles" in terms of performance/features/driving. By the time the 2010s came along, thats when things started being mandatory/required that had nothing to do with actual safety. Mandated backup cameras, driver assists for dummies (beyond Traction Control/ABS, like lane assist, automatic braking, etc), and most cars became electric power assisted instead of hydraulic power assisted. Cars of the 2010s/2020s are evaluated on a case by case basis.

A few examples Include:

90s - Golden era Hondas (EG/EK/DC2), NA/NB Miatas, 986 Boxsters

2000s - E46 3 Series/M, E90 3 Series/M,  NC Miata, 987 Cayman/Boxsters

2010s - FRS/BRZ Twins, ND Miata, Civic Si/Type R, 718 Cayman/Boxster

2020s - everything has mandatory driving assists and other stuff.

I am amused at your list, not because it is wrong (it very much isn't wrong), but because of the contemporary reviews.

The NB was soft and fat.  The E46 was the "Ultimate Parking Machine" because BMW softened and lightened all of the controls to be more Camry-friendly instead of a real enthusiasts' machine like the E30 or even the (fat, bloated) E36.  

Everything new is bad until the next generation, which makes the outgoing one seem better in hindsight 

Haha, I didn't make a "best of" list. I just made an example list based on how they were built and the technologies they came with. My NB1 has throttle by cable, no ABS and feels pretty analog to me. I'm about to pick up an NC2 that still uses hydraulic steering, but has ABS/Stability Control. My wife's RAV4 (not a driver car, obviously) has automated brake assist, lane keep assist, rear view camera, and all of the above (well, and electric steering).

So yeah....I guess what I am trying to say is that "analog" to me is mostly driver controlled. I don't really think (or care) about things like carburetors or any of those things that just make a car unbelievably inconvenient in modern day life.

preach said

I'd almost kill for an NSX.

Almost?

So what you're telling us is you're not fully committed.

There was an article in Panorama a few years ago "The Last of the Analog Porsches". Clearly they didn't take the literal definition, but I think their intent is along the lines of what Preach is looking for. Here's the video:   ...I'd cut the Boxsters off at 1999 with the cable throttle, but the definition of Analog is already stretched in this.