Learn me: $1500-$2000 Saturns

Any set of years/particular motor better than others? Looking at the engine in my Mom's 2000 something, everything seems to be pretty easy to get to. T-belt? Chain? Interference? Trouble spots?

Shopping for a single mom who needs four seats and reliability. Most hondas in that price range are a little sketchy, but there are some clean, lower mile saturns in that range.

Thanks!

Trouble = Boring, and they burn oil. Most you will find are fairly neglected, so expect to spend about $200 on tuneup stuff if you pick one up: Plugs, Wires, Air Filter, Cam Cover Gasket, Oil, Trans Fluid, etc. The speakers will probably be blown. T-Chain. So long as oil is changed, it will never need to be serviced.
Manual trans achilles heel is the diff-pin. Shouldn't be a problem unless said single mom likes to do burnouts. It can be welded (just the pin, not the diff) for performance applications
Auto trans valve bodies get sticky when they are old and shift hard, sometimes the input shaft nut can loosen. Both of these issues are easily serviced. Easy trans to work with... it has a drain plug and spin-on filter, so its just like an oil change.
All 91-98 DOHC motors are the same, 99+ is a different head. All are quite reliable. Some 00+ cars have air injection, which is annoying. Some of the SOHCs are prone to head-cracking. The cost difference is so low between SOHC and DOHC, just get the DOHC. It has either 25 or 40 more hp, depending what year SOHC.

I've purchased several in the $1K - $3K range. I think $2500-$3k is the sweet spot as you can get into before too much neglect, drive them for 50k miles, then sell them for the same price :) Spending less you still end up with a reliable car, just maybe a few more hours of your time and another trip to advance auto.

I (over)payed $3K for my current one. 100K, leather, sunroof, auto DOHC, runs great. Averaged just over 30mpg in mixed driving over the past 8k miles.

great old car value.

i just helped a friend find a '97 with 60k miles on it for $2,500. it runs like a watch.

the SOHC engines have different gearing and get better fuel economy. for having 25 less hp and taller gears, they really don't feel much slower to me. frankly, below 3000rpm i think the SOHC is healthier.

they don't rust. they insure for pennies. look up parts, they're super cheap too.

Thanks very much man! Without seeing the car in person, how do I know if it's a single cam? Different trim levels/models? Needs to be a slushbox, btw, preferably w/4 doors.

Mine just hit 159,000 miles, only the alternator has been changed other than regular maint. Make sure you're looking at "S" series cars, not "L" series. L is the mid-size euro chassis. (L100, L200 etc)

SL means sedan

SC means coupe

SW means wagon

a one at the end is a single cam, a two means twin-cam. SL-1,SL-2,SC-2, etc...

if the headrests are integrated into the seat, it's a SOHC. if they're adjustable, it's a DOHC.

for a 4 door you want an SL2 or SW2 (W is the wagon)

SL1 is the single cam. Under the hood, the twins are stamped on the valve cover, should be black for 96+. All the single cams are silver.

I happen to be selling one right now to DukeOfUndersteer that fits your description exactly. It's a slush box, twin cam, sedan.

SL - Sedan SW - Wagon SC - Coupe

1 - SOHC 2 - DOHC

By this rule, an SL2 is a twin cam sedan an SC1 is a single cam coupe

etc.

The only good thing about the SOHC models is the 5-speed's fifth gear ratio and the better cruising mileage that imparts. The SOHCs also lack a rear sway bar which kills the handling. :P

There is also a stripper SL model without a 1 which has manual steering. The SOHCs gained injection in 1995 which improved both power and mileage.

I've owned three: a 1995 SL1, a 1995 SC2, and a 1995 SW2--all 5-speeds. The second generation dash used in the 95's is much nicer, but the seats are worse.

Rust is a big but unobvious problem. The first generation styling has really grown on me. I didn't like how they looked at all when I bought the first one.

Coolant temp sensors go bad, you can buy them along with the wiring pigtail at GM dealers for a reasonable price.

Alternators get cooked by the exhaust manifold, Napa ones seem to last longer than AZ.

Clunking in the suspension is usually stabilizer links.

The muffler straps rust quickly, probably not an issue in the south.

Intake manifolds are plastic, don't crack them or they are expensive to replace (one tech learned that the hard way).

The bushings on the shifter cable at the transmission (manual) go bad, GM will only sell them with the whole cable assembly ($180-200) but you could find similar sized bushings to replace them for cheap.

Other than that they are pretty bulletproof, the only real failures we saw that the dealership were people who don't check the oil and put a rod through the block, used engines are cheap.

This is all for the SL, Ions have different problems.

HStockSolo wrote: The only good thing about the SOHC models is the 5-speed's fifth gear ratio and the better cruising mileage that imparts. The SOHCs also lack a rear sway bar which kills the handling. :P There is also a stripper SL model without a 1 which has manual steering. The SOHCs gained injection in 1995 which improved both power and mileage.

i don't think 5th gear is the only difference in the gearing. can you substantiate?

all SOHC motors have fuel injection. in '95 it went from tbi to multiport.

EvanB wrote: Alternators get cooked by the exhaust manifold, Napa ones seem to last longer than AZ. . The bushings on the shifter cable at the transmission (manual) go bad, GM will only sell them with the whole cable assembly ($180-200) but you could find similar sized bushings to replace them for cheap.

alternators die because the power steering pump leaked all over them. they're nowhere near the exhaust manifold.

you can also buy the shifter cable bushing by themselves at an auto parts store.

Ok, that was just information from my time working at a Saturn dealer in the parts department. I have never owned or worked on one.

belteshazzar wrote: alternators die because the power steering pump leaked all over them. they're nowhere near the exhaust manifold.

I haven't had any power steering leaks. My alternators have died on the hottest days of the summer. Got a free replacement from Autozone last year for the one I bought in 2005. Keep those receipts!

The common oil consumption problem in the head combined with phenomenal cornering grip (R-compounds + heat + concrete) can lead to spun bearings. It is a very easy engine to work on. :P

I have had EGR problems. The intake often gets pretty loaded with carbon.

Man. Great info. guys. YOU ROCK!!! Funny you mentioned the coolant temp sensor. Mom's been having issues with temp and (other?) lights coming on/going off, with no overheating. The shop has been "chasing down" the problem by replacing parts. I may end up buying the car from her, as she is looking for something new. Not sure what year it is. Coupe. Can't remember if it's a single or twin cam. Stupid low miles as her daily commute was less than 5 miles, and she is now retired.

Random aside: Should I be considering Neons too? I see a ton of them on the road up here. Seems like they refuse to die.

I'd take a Neon over a Saturn.

Based purely on that i find them more fun to drive. And i've worked on both.

Admittedly, i didn't know all the ins and outs of the Saturns before i replaced the engine in a 96 SC2, but that sucked pretty bad.

Stuff is laid out weird. Getting to the alternator was not my idea of fun.

Replacing a starter on one isn't a good time, either.

They were meant to be maintained, not fixed.

While the correct answer for that price range is "The nicest anything you can find," there's a laundry list of cars i'd buy before a Saturn. But that's just me.

I see alot come in here for and egr to be replaced. that said, the part is cheap and it is super easy to diag and to replace.

some things are hard to do on a saturn, many are easy.

i do alternators, and obviously starters, from below. they're not that bad.

anything that involves actually removing the engine or transmssion from the vehicle is complicated by the subframe being in the way.

typical problems related to that coolant temp sensor include poor fuel economy and hard hot starts. when there's a problem, the computer thinks it's compensating for "cold" signal that you may not actually have. the harness plug is at fault almost as often as the sensor itself.

i hate to be superficial, but the neon just looks dumb to me. i know some saturns are homely too, but you can pull body panels off and drive a sweet black metal skeleton.

belteshazzar wrote: the SOHC engines have different gearing and get better fuel economy. for having 25 less hp and taller gears, they really don't feel much slower to me. frankly, below 3000rpm i think the SOHC is healthier.

The SOHC gearing is better for economy (all gears). The manuals are totally interchangeable w/o issues (or 5th can be swapped w/o removing the trans), the autos have to be mated to the proper engine.

The DOHC makes more power across the entire powerband than the SOHC does, and significantly more power above 5500, which is where the SOHC redlines. From my research it has a much better BSFC sweet spot as well, but due to the shorter gearing gets slightly worse mileage. As far as engines go, it is a much better engine all the way around than the SOHC. A DOHC auto will feel like a rocket compared to an SOHC, although neither are particularly fast. Auto DOHC is a mid 16 second car.

EvanB wrote: Coolant temp sensors go bad, you can buy them along with the wiring pigtail at GM dealers for a reasonable price. Alternators get cooked by the exhaust manifold, Napa ones seem to last longer than AZ. Intake manifolds are plastic, don't crack them or they are expensive to replace (one tech learned that the hard way). The bushings on the shifter cable at the transmission (manual) go bad, GM will only sell them with the whole cable assembly ($180-200) but you could find similar sized bushings to replace them for cheap.

Coolant temp is a common problem, yes.
I've had 7 or 8 Saturns now. Have only replaced one alternator. This is an issue (IMO) that is blown out of proportion. It can be replaced in <30 minutes and is pretty easy to get to - pull of wheel, pull off splash guard and it's right there.
Only the 99+ manifolds are plastic. The rest are aluminum. You can get used manifolds for pennies on performance sites, esp. the plastic ones as people scrap their 99+ heads/manifolds for the 98- stuff in the search for more power (99+ has smaller ports).
Shifter bushing kits and cable end bushing kits are like $10 on ebay. There are a couple different ones out there.

I have nothing against Neons. They are decent, although the HG issues scare me a bit. They can make impressive power with bolt ons. The only reason I would prefer a Saturn is A) lots of experience with them, B) plastic and C) wagons

FWIW, Saturn was rated one of the top 3 "Most reliable <$500 cars" by 24hrs of Lemons/Jalopnik. http://jalopnik.com/5450420/results-of-the-lemons-torture-test-volvo-alfa-saturn-the-most-reliable-500-beaters

FWIW, the headgasket issue on Neons was permanently solved when they changed to an MLS gasket. I have more experience with them, and can't speak for the Saturn. If you can find a clean Neon, they're fantastic cheap cars. They do, however, use timing belts...and at this point few owners bother maintaining them and instead drive it till the belt fails. You'd have to count a timing belt/tensioner and waterpump into the Neon budget.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'd take a Neon over a Saturn. Based purely on that i find them more fun to drive. And i've worked on both. Admittedly, i didn't know all the ins and outs of the Saturns before i replaced the engine in a 96 SC2, but that sucked pretty bad. Stuff is laid out weird. Getting to the alternator was not my idea of fun. Replacing a starter on one isn't a good time, either. They were meant to be maintained, not fixed. While the correct answer for that price range is "The nicest anything you can find," there's a laundry list of cars i'd buy before a Saturn. But that's just me.

Also interested in laundry lists! I am not a big believer in "nicest one you can find for the price." Honestly, it's a stretch for me to suggest anything other than a honda to this chick, but at this price point, any honda is going to have a gazillion miles, and I'd prefer a timing chain over a belt, as I know I'll be lucky if she checks/changes oil.

poopshovel wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'd take a Neon over a Saturn. Based purely on that i find them more fun to drive. And i've worked on both. Admittedly, i didn't know all the ins and outs of the Saturns before i replaced the engine in a 96 SC2, but that sucked pretty bad. Stuff is laid out weird. Getting to the alternator was not my idea of fun. Replacing a starter on one isn't a good time, either. They were meant to be maintained, not fixed. While the correct answer for that price range is "The nicest anything you can find," there's a laundry list of cars i'd buy before a Saturn. But that's just me.

Also interested in laundry lists! I am not a big believer in "nicest one you can find for the price." Honestly, it's a stretch for me to suggest anything other than a honda to this chick, but at this price point, any honda is going to have a gazillion miles, and I'd prefer a timing chain over a belt, as I know I'll be lucky if she checks/changes oil.

I'd take any Mazda BG chassis over a Saturn.
5th or 6th gen Celica. (no 4 door, though... but there are 4 seats if that helps)
Prism/Corolla.
Camry. ($2k would get a CHERRY ~90-91)
626
Maxima
Sentra

unless you run them out of oil, they're pretty hard to hurt.

poopshovel wrote: Shopping for a single mom who needs four seats and reliability. Most hondas in that price range are a little sketchy, but there are some clean, lower mile saturns in that range.

That may be the killer problem for used Saturns. All three of mine ate oil rather quickly, so they really need their oil level checked consistently. Now mine no longer uses any since being rebuilt, but finding one like that is going to be hard, though I am accepting offers. :)

back when they were new-ish cars, we would replace or rebuild the engines by customer request at the dealership. the number one reason (and number two, and number three) that they burned oil was stuck piston rings. not worn out. stuck.