Learn me: 180 degree Solo II turns

So at the Autocross on Sunday, the course held 2 really tight turns. These always screw me up.

First, I tried braking early and carrying speed around the pivot cone. I stayed in second, but fell off boost and it killed my acceleration down the next straight.

Then I tried braking hard, downshifting to first, and staying as close as I could to keep the distance travelled as short as possible. It felt really slow pivoting around the cone and then I was hunting for traction accelerating hard in first.

Any tips? How would you do it in a Turbo FWD car?

Left Foot Braking

http://teamoneil.com/wyatt-knox-giving-us-the-left-foot-braking-basics/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MzHelWJe78

You gotta rip dat e-brake, then you power OVER.

As far as keeping the turbo spooled, with my c900 SAAB, I left foot brake and keep a toe on the gas when I need to get into the boost quickly after a corner. Im not sure that I'm good enough make that work in a really tight corner.

Swank Force One wrote: You gotta rip dat e-brake, then you power OVER.

god dammit. I came here to post this.

In reply to pinchvalve:

Turbo FWD car? Left foot brake, keep it somewhat spooled, hit the gas as you unwind the wheel and watch the world stop as your inside tire spins uselessly. Unless you have an LSD then you can probably get it launched decently.

These are the sorts of corners that lead the stock folks to disconnect their front sway bars to try and keep the inside tire planted.

Basically those turns are a PITA and you just get to square them off, straighten the wheel as early as possible to equalize the traction on the front end and launch out of the corner as best you can. A dab of e-brake will help rotate the car a bit once you get used to using it.

Depends on the radius of the turn.

If you left foot brake early enough no E-brake will be needed get that back end nice and light, a dab of outward steering before crisp to sharp turn in with very little throttle input (if in gear), with have the back end rotating nicely getting everything pointed towards exit ready for all the boost.

pinchvalve wrote: How would you do it in a Turbo FWD car?

Lug it in 2nd, it is definitely not faster to go to 1st for the two seconds you'll stay in it. Your perceived "turbo lag" is probably not nearly as bad as you think it is (hello adrenalin rush!)

The left-foot braking is also a good idea, BUT, I personally don't feel in auto-x it makes that much of a difference (this is coming from somebody who needs to left foot brake in his racing). I bet if you perfected the corner with what you have (stay in 2nd, late braking, proper exit) will end up being that fastest way.

Also very rarely will a course include a completely isolated 180. Look at the features leading into and out of the 180, for example, being early and tight may set you up better for the element than a neutral "racing line" or for example, it may benefit you to slightly overdrive the 180 if for example the 180 is a left hander and the next element is towards your right as you exit.

Just give it the ol' Scandinavian Flick!

Single Pylon Turn is the content of Lesson 9 of the original film Autocrossing with Dick Turner.
I highly recommend you view all 11 Lessons.

Autocross School Lessons - 9 - Single Cone Pylon Turn

Answer is swing wide while decelerating. Tackle the turn by making the cone itself the very late apex which allows you to pull away at maximum acceleration.

HappyAndy wrote: As far as keeping the turbo spooled, with my c900 SAAB, I left foot brake and keep a toe on the gas when I need to get into the boost quickly after a corner. Im not sure that I'm good enough make that work in a really tight corner.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I'm not using any front sway bar at all to help reduce inside front wheel spin, but my car really needs an LSD. IMO, every FWD turbo car needs one.

In my car's case, it handles just fine with no front bar, and even if I had an LSD, I'm not sure that I'd put it back in. I can even provoke it to oversteer a bit, but I'm not skilled enough to use that to advantage on a course yet. (Probably because I can't keep it running long enough to get to a real event, LOL)

Hopefully the OP won't have that problem.

I suck, so the following advice will reflect that - take it for what it's worth. Don't downshift, it's a useless time, momentum, and concentration killer. I tried the slow-in-roll-around-it-method but always wound up going slower than head long ploughing through it.

My son, who is faster than I am, lets it understeer a little all the way through and modulates the throttle to control how much, leaving him in great position to accelerate at exit.

This is non-boosted 1st (him) and 3rd (me) gen Foci, so can't help you there, but he beats me soundly no matter which car he's driving.

Good luck!

Oh, and I need to go view the link posted by JohnRW1621.

JohnRW1621 wrote: Single Pylon Turn is the content of Lesson 9 of the original film Autocrossing with Dick Turner. I highly recommend you view all 11 Lessons. Autocross School Lessons - 9 - Single Cone Pylon Turn Answer is swing wide while decelerating. Tackle the turn by making the cone itself the very late apex which allows you to pull away at maximum acceleration.

Yes. This!

drummerfromdefleopard wrote: Left Foot Braking

This, when I did the ST Academy in the Fiesta ST I can't say I remember ever lifting off the throttle the entire run. Considering I posted the second quickest time that day, I'd say that was probably the best idea.

The late apex is the quickest method and would also be the best for keeping the boost up in a turbo'ed car - if there's room.

If there isn't room because of grass or some other course feature and you're forced to choose between a J-turn and nearly coming to a stop (I situation I'd often have with a 180 turnaround cone in the middle of a 2-lane wide section of track), the J-turn is quicker. The best way to do it is to make the nose rotate as closely around the cone as possible (which means starting the slide good and early - if you start as you're passing the cone, you'll overshoot it by a long way), and get back on the power when you're about 2/3 way to pointing back where you came from - or maybe earlier than that for a turbo'ed car.

If you are taking the pivot in second gear, then left-foot braking is the way to go. You can beginning spooling up before you need it.

If downshifting, ALWAYS use the lower gear to accelerate. Match revs and add power/track-out as it will take it. Using the lower gear for braking will usually upset the chassis and increase your times.

Not the best example. It's the second turn in the clip.

1st Gear Pivot

JohnRW1621 wrote: Single Pylon Turn is the content of Lesson 9 of the original film Autocrossing with Dick Turner. I highly recommend you view all 11 Lessons. Autocross School Lessons - 9 - Single Cone Pylon Turn Answer is swing wide while decelerating. Tackle the turn by making the cone itself the very late apex which allows you to pull away at maximum acceleration.

This.

smack the designer for putting one of those in the course.

Are you doing this up at PittRace?

I have a big rear bar on the back of the Focus ST and I flick the wheel and it comes around, but other than that the late apex posted above seems like the best choice.

DaveEstey wrote: smack the designer for putting one of those in the course.

If the main lot you run on is an old airstrip, then a big 180 turn-around becomes a fact of life. While our designers do a decent job of mixing it up, once in awhile they do just put a single cone out in space to keep us on our toes. Sometimes it's even more than 180. Those are a real bitch.

IIRC, the main thing is to get the turn done and lined up for the next gate so you are full on the gas essentially before you reach that cone.

JohnRW1621 wrote: Single Pylon Turn is the content of Lesson 9 of the original film Autocrossing with Dick Turner. I highly recommend you view all 11 Lessons. Autocross School Lessons - 9 - Single Cone Pylon Turn Answer is swing wide while decelerating. Tackle the turn by making the cone itself the very late apex which allows you to pull away at maximum acceleration.

That is the correct answer.

The fun answer is brake late, turn in as you let off the brakes, trade footbake for handbrake, collect the car with your left hand as you downshift with your right, and power out. When done right, you roll the weight of the car around from the front, to the outside front, to the outside rear, and the tactile sensation is that you are smearing the back of the car against the ground like a big crayon.

KEY is powering out. If you aren't powering out (meaning getting weight back near the end of the maneuver and then utilizing it) then you're just spinning the car.

Fr'instance: https://youtu.be/5suXyuNM76E?t=35s (that is technically dirt, but it's hard, not-dusty, rubber-hardened, squealy dirt, and the people punching above their weight were on autocross tires)

Seriously? Only two people nailed this question. The correct (and only) line for the 180* is to swing wide and late apex the cone. Go DEEP into the turn before you start your turn in. And lift AS you turn.

Jesus Christ.... "E-brake". GTFO...

And left foot braking should only be used to load the turbo. This ain't initial D kids...