Learn me 1st gen Ford Probe GT

The good...the bad...the ugly....

I remember them when they were new. Always thought they were cool.

same car as the 1gen mx6 GT, was a joint project between ford and mazda. the probe was supposed to replace the traditional rwd v8 mustang, but was thwarted at the last minute by mustang owners letter writing campaign.

the 2.2 turbo can handle a good bit of boost since it has a really low C/R (7.8:1 iirc). but aftermarket support and tuning options are limited. most examples will need shifter bushings, about $12 from mazda, which will fix most of the vagueness of the shifter.

the mx6's won a couple of autocross championships back in the day, so they handle pretty well. weak link is mainly the trans (diff in particular) which doesn't like it when you do a one wheel peel.

they're fun cars to drive, just don't expect turbo dodge kind of power and durability

There honestly isn't much ugly. Which surprised me, quite frankly. Probes in general get a bad rep, though they're pretty good cars.

They look heavier than they really are.

The turbo model is actually quite quick, and will turn into VERY quick for pennies. As in... capable of 13 second quarter miles for well under $300 if you're smart about it.

They are ridiculous torque monsters, which is really the only problem with them. But torque is good, right? Not necessarily when dealing with an older FWD car. They can be a handful. My car scares the poop out of most people.

The suspension is standard macstrut fare. The rear suspension bushings are a little strange. They were soft rubber, and MEANT to be like that. Replacing them with harder poly bushings makes some issues crop up if they aren't lubricated periodically. They require lubing more often than most.

The transmissions aren't the greatest thing since sliced bread. Mazda can't seem to make a really strong FWD transmission. That said, this will have the H-type, and unless you're making ludicrous power, it should be fine. If you do happen to grenade one, spares DO turn up on www.probetalk.com and www.mx6.com fairly often, but don't expect to score one for $50 or anything. The other option is a Toyota transmission swap. This has started to become popular, and is actually way easier than you would think.

In terms of aftermarket? There isn't much. Luckily, the stock brakes are more than adequate, and there are suspension options out there. From a motor standpoint, there's really nothing. Everything is custom. Luckily, everyone has been doing it, so there's a multitude of good write ups all over the place.

Here's where i actually disagree with Strizzo: You CAN expect turbo Dodge power. (with more torque, even) You can expect almost the same durability as well. The transmission being the main weak point. The motor is built like a brick E36 M3house.

My motor has 173k miles on it, and i've run over 20psi on a Supra CT26 turbo through it. (WAY bigger than the stock pea shooter.) On my normal 10psi, the car is fast. On my normal "kill" setting of 15-16psi, you have to sit the berkeley down, shut the berkeley up, and control this motherberkeleyer before it kills you.

What are you wanting to do with one?

Oh... did i mention that there's a PNP Megasquirt system available for it? WIN.

A turbo dodge with the tiny stock mitsu turbo can make over 300lb ft of torque with nothing but a decent intercooler and some injectors.

Ive ridden in a stock turbo mx6 @15 psi and i dont think it was anywhere near that.

But, im not saying one is better than the other.. just that the dodges are a lot cheaper and easier to fix

Yep, I remember they were supposed to be the 'stang replacement, and there was a huge uproar. I was in high school back in those days, and subscribed to all the car mags.

Wow, thanks for that detailed write up, 93celicaGT2. I'm still just hunting for a good, CHEAP, HPDE car to go screw around with. Long term goal a few years from now is to save up to buy a retired spec Miata or spec Neon, etc... but in the short term, want to pick up something cheap that I can have a great time with and not spend a fortune. So if I get a few track days out of it and it dies on the side of the road, so be it. I've seen a few Probes locally pretty cheap.

Klayfish wrote: Yep, I remember they were supposed to be the 'stang replacement, and there was a huge uproar. I was in high school back in those days, and subscribed to all the car mags. Wow, thanks for that detailed write up, 93celicaGT2. I'm still just hunting for a good, CHEAP, HPDE car to go screw around with. Long term goal a few years from now is to save up to buy a retired spec Miata or spec Neon, etc... but in the short term, want to pick up something cheap that I can have a great time with and not spend a fortune. So if I get a few track days out of it and it dies on the side of the road, so be it. I've seen a few Probes locally pretty cheap.

No problem. If you're looking for a 1st gen, i wouldn't really bother with anything other than the GT.

The 2nd gen is also a good car.

Vigo wrote: A turbo dodge with the tiny stock mitsu turbo can make over 300lb ft of torque with nothing but a decent intercooler and some injectors. Ive ridden in a stock turbo mx6 @15 psi and i dont think it was anywhere near that. But, im not saying one is better than the other.. just that the dodges are a lot cheaper and easier to fix

The stock VF turbo on these things MIGHT get close to that with stock injectors, fmu, intercooler, exhaust, boost controller, and boost cut removed. The stock turbo on these isn't that great, i'll admit. Tons of write ups on bolt on upgrades, though. T-bird hybrid is very common, and should hit that 300wtq mark.

The Dodges are probably slightly simpler. That said, the MX6 is the easiest car to work on that i own, and i don't find any of mine real hard to mess with. And i'm a pretty awful wrench.

Dodges cheaper? Quite possible. I haven't looked into them much besides running across hilariously overpriced examples on my local Craigslist.

Stock high mileage motor with a 50trim turbo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MdRsu5ZA6M

346whp
458wtq

Long story short by the numbers:

1) Girl I had previously dated bought a Champagne colored one new.

2) Her parents moved and the house wasn't sold yet, so we were having a mini class reunion.

3) I show up early to help set up for the party.

4) She comes out of the bathroom dressed only in a towel.

5) I ask; "Where are the keys?"

I can only say that I had a girlfriend at the time...but, yeah...

In reply to 93celicaGT2:

you probably have more recent/reliable info that i do. last i messed with one was almost 4 years ago and back then there were a few guys doing fe3 swaps, but nobody had gotten one running quite right and it was still kinda up in the air about getting a MS to run the motor without the rest of the car freaking out.

Strizzo wrote: In reply to 93celicaGT2: you probably have more recent/reliable info that i do. last i messed with one was almost 4 years ago and back then there were a few guys doing fe3 swaps, but nobody had gotten one running quite right and it was still kinda up in the air about getting a MS to run the motor without the rest of the car freaking out.

That's been solved with MS PNP. Woot!!!!!!

The FE3... everyone still talks about it. Very few do it. I plan on doing it when my F2T blows. If it ever does. It shows no signs of letting up, and i'm gearing up to push 20+psi on a much larger turbo in the coming months. I'm pretty sure i can take a crack at the car in the video that i posted earlier.

I'd worry more about the trans and getting a good suspension under the thing, etc. Honestly, making more power with this cars is about the last improvement area I'd focus on. Brakes are good, it makes a pile of torque, but the handling isn't amazing. After that I'd probably just try to make them comfortable. But that's me.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/cto/1749317926.html

I have seen this local ad for a similar MX-6. The seller sure is talking up the 4WS option. I can't recall reading anything about this at all. Seems a bit pricey although I have no idea how rare or desirable this car may be....

Klayfish wrote: Yep, I remember they were supposed to be the 'stang replacement, and there was a huge uproar. I was in high school back in those days, and subscribed to all the car mags. Wow, thanks for that detailed write up, 93celicaGT2. I'm still just hunting for a good, CHEAP, HPDE car to go screw around with. Long term goal a few years from now is to save up to buy a retired spec Miata or spec Neon, etc... but in the short term, want to pick up something cheap that I can have a great time with and not spend a fortune. So if I get a few track days out of it and it dies on the side of the road, so be it. I've seen a few Probes locally pretty cheap.

I'll be honest, having done the monster tq FWD vehicle before. I think for a HPDE event car, I'd avoid an older, turbo FWD vehicle. HPDE have a way of building WAY more heat than the occasional street hijinks.

Basically, I think you could do better for cheap, though the boosted cars are a riot as a DD or autoxer.

My thoughts? I'd contemplate a 2nd gen Probe GT or MX6, or even a DOHC neon.
Finally, now that Honda's are falling out of fashion (with a commensurate drop in price), it's easy to find a good buy on a Civic or Integra that's already had some of the basics taken care of.

Last thought: get a Miata, or an early E36 BMW, or an E30. The chassis on all are a delight to drive, and while they lack power compared to a bolt-on boosted FWD car...I suspect you'll find them ultimately more fun and reliable on the track.

I ran one in the $2004 Challenge. It had some engine issues that held it back on power, but it has surprisingly neutral and well balanced handling for what was basically a stock suspension. They're fun but have very little aftermarket.

What we've been building for them are DIYPNPs - they're build it yourself kits, not quite the same thing as a ready to go MSPNP, but getting MS to run one is pretty well solved. Most of the big power buildups have a bit of fab work to get larger turbos on the F2T though.

My buddy had an MX-6 GT...very quick car for the price. Seemed easy enough to work on, even though that engine bay is a freaking bowl of spaghetti.

His had 175,000 miles (original turbo and engine) and still pulled hard as hell and made lots of boost, especially for that month he was running an open downpipe.

Personally I think the MX-6s are better looking, and seem easier to find.

njansenv wrote:

Klayfish wrote: Yep, I remember they were supposed to be the 'stang replacement, and there was a huge uproar. I was in high school back in those days, and subscribed to all the car mags. Wow, thanks for that detailed write up, 93celicaGT2. I'm still just hunting for a good, CHEAP, HPDE car to go screw around with. Long term goal a few years from now is to save up to buy a retired spec Miata or spec Neon, etc... but in the short term, want to pick up something cheap that I can have a great time with and not spend a fortune. So if I get a few track days out of it and it dies on the side of the road, so be it. I've seen a few Probes locally pretty cheap.

I'll be honest, having done the monster tq FWD vehicle before. I think for a HPDE event car, I'd avoid an older, turbo FWD vehicle. HPDE have a way of building WAY more heat than the occasional street hijinks. Basically, I think you could do better for cheap, though the boosted cars are a riot as a DD or autoxer. My thoughts? I'd contemplate a 2nd gen Probe GT or MX6, or even a DOHC neon. Finally, now that Honda's are falling out of fashion (with a commensurate drop in price), it's easy to find a good buy on a Civic or Integra that's already had some of the basics taken care of. Last thought: get a Miata, or an early E36 BMW, or an E30. The chassis on all are a delight to drive, and while they lack power compared to a bolt-on boosted FWD car...I suspect you'll find them ultimately more fun and reliable on the track.

A friend of mine had a 89 Probe GT back in high school. He paid $800 for it and took me for a ride in it. Wow, that thing went like stink. He took it to his mechanic and found out it needed $800 in work just to pass inspection so he sold it for that amount and broke even.

also, first-gen Probes can swallow an amazing amount of stuff.

ccrelan wrote: http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/cto/1749317926.html I have seen this local ad for a similar MX-6. The seller sure is talking up the 4WS option. I can't recall reading anything about this at all. Seems a bit pricey although I have no idea how rare or desirable this car may be....

Way overpriced, and 4WS sucks.

MadScientistMatt wrote: I ran one in the $2004 Challenge. It had some engine issues that held it back on power, but it has surprisingly neutral and well balanced handling for what was basically a stock suspension. They're fun but have very little aftermarket. What we've been building for them are DIYPNPs - they're build it yourself kits, not quite the same thing as a ready to go MSPNP, but getting MS to run one is pretty well solved. Most of the big power buildups have a bit of fab work to get larger turbos on the F2T though.

This. I reamed on my car a bit this weekend, and i was VERY pleasantly surprised with it's handling capabilities. It's got a great planted/solid feel to it. My car could use some much further tweaking as well.

I should have clarified on the DIY part of PNP. My bad.

As an aside:

The 1st gen MX6 GT looks positively amazing in black, with the 2nd gen RX7 BBS wheels. I rode in one yesterday that was running 22psi on a .63 decent sized T3 with very rudimentary tuning. To say that it was fast would have been a gross understatement. One of the faster cars i think i've ever been in. It had a stock junkyard motor with about 220k miles on it.

"I rode in one yesterday that was running 22psi on a .63 decent sized T3 with very rudimentary tuning. To say that it was fast would have been a gross understatement. One of the faster cars i think i've ever been in. It had a stock junkyard motor with about 220k miles on it."

I know the intake plenum inlet is facing the wrong way, and I know something has to be done with the distributor, but this motor in a convertible RX-7 seems very affordable, should get great gas mileage, and a trans that can live with the motor shouldn't be too hard to find (B2200 bell housing, RX-7 TII trans & diff, right?). MS + distributorless ignition, turbo upgrade and a good intercooler later...

pres589 wrote: "I rode in one yesterday that was running 22psi on a .63 decent sized T3 with very rudimentary tuning. To say that it was fast would have been a gross understatement. One of the faster cars i think i've ever been in. It had a stock junkyard motor with about 220k miles on it." I know the intake plenum inlet is facing the wrong way, and I know something has to be done with the distributor, but this motor in a convertible RX-7 seems very affordable, should get great gas mileage, and a trans that can live with the motor shouldn't be too hard to find (B2200 bell housing, RX-7 TII trans & diff, right?). MS + distributorless ignition, turbo upgrade and a good intercooler later...

Yep. Or if you really want to get sneaky, do the same thing, but in that B2200, which comes with the F2 motor in the first place.

There's actually a guy running around with an F2T in an AE86. I can only imagine what THAT feels like.