Learn me 3rd gen F bodies

Since my finances have fallen through and far short of what I expected them to be, I am going with my backup plan to a GTO: a Trans Am.

I know that you can make them turn and stop, and go is obviously not an issue, but aside from ogling them since I was a young teen with a learners permit and a desire to attempt to avoid wrapping it around a tree, I don't know that much about them. I currently have an 84 Supra, but I feel like for less than 7k, I can utilize the aftermarket and make one quite a force to be reckoned with.

It must be a 5 speed, I know that limits me to a 305 but I have an LT1 Caprice ready to cannibalize for the engine. I would greatly prefer a Firebird to a Camaro, as I think they've always looked better.

So, GRM, what should I know about the mullet machine?

All I can tell you is that the T5 in my car broke after my 383 went in, I did a four wheel disk conversion on the cheap and the ring gear E36 M3 the bed. Basically the drive line is fragile. No cup holder at least in the Camaro. T tops leak. Get weld in SFC's. Most important is prepare to be harassed by rednecks every time you drive it, they are pretty fun.... The car, not the redneck

I love 3rd gen camaros, but everything said above is true. If you want to make a 25 year old car move like that 7k isn't going to be enough. Especially if you want a 5 speed.

If you have your heart set on it and need to do it under 7K, see if you can find a 4th gen LT1 T56 car to pull the power train from including the axel.

I would bet good money that putting that $7k into your Supra will net you a faster, more reliable, better handling car.

Have a friend who is addicted to them, has something like 7 of them (I dont get it either).

Helped him build one or two.

Getting a strong enough manual trans isnt the cheapest ($1200 used for T-56).

Rear ends are weak and stronger bolt in replacements are not cheap. ($1500 and up IIRC)

If you get one with a stick, you have a 305, which isnt really what you want, so you will be dropping money on a 350.

If you are dropping money on a 350, you figure why not LS? Even if carbing you need electronic ignition stuff.

Add that stuff up and compare LS powered 4th gen prices to the 3rd gen prices and get back to me.

Throw that same money into a C4 corvette and you are better off as well I think. Chassis is just so much better and you can build pretty good power before worrying as much on the transaxle IIRC.

Not really any material difference between firebirds and camaros.

Guys, I think this is a passion project. I don't think any amount of logic is going to dissuade the OP.

So...back to the original question. If you're set on the 3rd gen and the 7k budget, I think you are probably limited to the 350+auto. That's just kind of the nature of the beast with most GM stuff up until, like,2000. This is honestly why I prefer Japanese marques as projects. But not to worry, there's still plenty of fun to be had with an auto. You could consider a manual shift kit and a high stall torque converter and just hoon about with way too much v8. The 350 is a 350, so you can build it with 50 years worth of performance parts that I'm sure you can scavenge from junkyards, craigslist, and ebay. Definitely get weld in sub frame connectors and sway bars on board. Bilsteins and your choice of springs seem to be the go to. A nice panhard bar should help keep the geometry in check one you go lower (I'm assuming it's getting lowered). Find a 9" rear from something. Again, to me this is scavengeable. When shopping be very diligent about checking for rust, especially around the hatch and t-tops. The interiors, especially 30 years later, squeak like an angry squirrel. I'm not sure how one remedies that other than fully gutting the thing and putting it back together the way it should've been from the factory.

When searching for one make sure to type "camero" into the CL box.

Example: http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/5513877899.html

If youve got 7K your probably better off starting with a 4th gen LT1 or LS1. Im finding LT1 t56 cars for around 3500 in good clean condition, that leaves you 3500 for bolts on, suspension, and wheels and tires. Gives you a good handling 300whp car. Good shopping and you can probably fit a cam in there also.

Or you could just buy an LS1 car and maybe get some suspension mods in there, or a couple bolt ons.

The rears do blow up, but unless your dig racing a bunch they are fine. I broke 3 in 2 years, all happened while dig racing, and once I learned a little mechanical empathy and how to slip a clutch on a launch a little, I made it 6 years on another stock one with no problems. They normally die from really sticky tires (DRs and better) or wheel hop.

If you really want a 3rd gen, Id just swap it, but not to an LS, to a LT1, cause you can get a running t56 car for cheap enough, and just swap over all the drive train, and other stuff like disc brake rear, seats and whatever else swaps.

But a 3rd gen while probably end up being more expensive to make an equally nice car, because they are so close in price to an LT1 car for a nice one, or they are dumb cheap for a haggard one. then you have to spend more on interior and cleaning up the exterior etc.

Either way I like them both.

whatever you do, buy all your stuff used, both platforms have such a big following, NIB and used stuff is all over, no reason to pay for brand new stuff except for a few things like shocks. My money went way farther when I started searching the classifieds on various forums, and most of the time I could find what I was looking for right away or in a day or two.

LS1tech.com Ltxtech.com ls1lt1.com thirdgen.org frrax.com camaroz28.com and of course the bay

Don't have a whole lot of experience with the third gens, but I've got a 4th gen and a buddy of mine has a 3rd gen 'Bird (GTO as well, so evidently you two have similar taste.)

They're very flexy cars, particularly the t top examples which are by far the most common, hence the comment on sub frame connectors above. Stock shocks are utter E36 M3, Bilsteins or Konis are a necessity. Sam Strano is your man for handling upgrades, I've got his springs on my 4th gen and like them a lot both on the street and the auto x course. Biggest difference in the suspension between the gen 3s and 4s is struts on the 3rd gens, although the double a arms on the 4th have a crappy camber curve as well. They both seem to need a lot more camber up front than what comes stock to get the front end to grip (stock alignment specs on the 4th gen even allow for +.5 degrees of camber). There are factory takeoff options available to upgrade the sways, I think up to a 24mm solid rear and 36mm front (possibly hollow?) Wheel hop is an issue, especially lowered, but brackets to improve control arm angle are pretty cheap.

I think some of the interior parts are tough to find in nice shape on the 3rd gens. The dashes apparently all crack and I know my friend has had a lot of trouble finding stuff to fix his broken hvac mix control, or whatever.

I think the weak rear end thing is totally overblown for the average user, unless you're constantly launching it on DRs as Opti mentions. If you want a 4th gen rear end for disk swap, I've got one with 3.23s and a Torsen I'd let go pretty cheap, if you want it.

Sounds like you won't be satisfied with the 305, so you're looking at some money to fix that issue whichever way you slice it. Honestly, I'd just pony up the extra cash for an ls1 4th gen. Damn near 300 to the wheels bone stock (they were legitimately very underrated from the factory) and the ceiling is virtually limitless.

I briefly owned a 4th gen F-body and had someone else's project 3rd gen parked at my house for over a year. Having said that, in your situation, i would build the supra or a 4th gen before the 3rd gen. People complain about 4th gen ergonomics, and as a former owner i agree with that, but the 3rd gen to me is a car that's so bad ergonomically that while i like looking at them i don't have any interest in owning one. C4 ergonomics are bad too but they are so much more car for so little additional money i'd put them in front of any F-body for a 7k build.

Also i can only reinforce what people have said in response to 'going fast not a problem' regarding the 3g fbody. AFAIK the fastest one they made will barely crack 14s if running perfectly and by the time you've done upgrades to catch a stock LT1 car you're over the price of an lt1 car anyway.

In reply to Vigo:

Eh, the ergonomics are totally subjective. I would actually consider the driving position one of the positives of the car,they seem to fit taller guys very well. I'm 6'3 and have no issues with helmet clearance,even with the t tops on. I can slide the seat so far back I can barely reach the pedals.

Apexcarver wrote: Throw that same money into a C4 corvette and you are better off as well I think. Chassis is just so much better and you can build pretty good power before worrying as much on the transaxle IIRC.

I agree, but the C5 was the first transaxle corvette. The stick C4 cars had what basically amounted to a Super T-10 4 speed with a kinda flaky overdrive behind it, or a ZF 6 speed that I know nothing about, but I think takes some unique clutch.

I love c4s but ive been told a lot of the small trim pieces and stuff to keep them as a nice dd are becoming nla and are a fortune to find used. Its already a problem on early c5s so i assume it be even worse on the c4 but have no personal experience.

Furious_E wrote: In reply to Vigo: Eh, the ergonomics are totally subjective. I would actually consider the driving position one of the positives of the car,they seem to fit taller guys very well. I'm 6'3 and have no issues with helmet clearance,even with the t tops on. I can slide the seat so far back I can barely reach the pedals.

Makes sense. I'm 6'0 and fit in literally everything. My most frequent 'fit' complaint is steering columns that don't tilt down far enough.

Problem solved.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Trans-Am-GTA-/162081189629?nav=SEARCH

I had an 86 Trans Am many years ago. It was a TPI 305/auto car. I was coming from a string of Second Gen T/As and initially felt that the third gen car lacked soul. After spending some time with it and exploring it's limits, I still found it lacking that something special. I wouldn't call it super flexy, mine was a T-Top car and it was tight with no creaks or rattles and it didn't leak a drop. I miss that car terribly now, it was in immaculate condition.

Found an old picture of it. That was probably around 1998 or so.

I drove my brother's around for quite a while, and it's the worst car I have driven. The floppy chassis crashes when you drive on railroad tracks or on bad roads, and require a set of weld-in subframe connectors, maybe even two. A LT1 4th gen is a better option, or go with your Supra or a C4 Corvette. Everybody mentioned most of their flaws, but the steering is worse because the steering boxes don't feel as good as a steering rack (4th gen), not like the feel is great with those either. The 4th gen fuel pump repair is much easier to access in the 4th gen if you happen to need to do that repair. Another flaw is that the T-tops leak and were very popular (more potential rust), so it may be hard to find a slicktop car if you're looking for that. The brakes are terrible, and of course, aftermarket performance systems are pricey. A budget upgrade is to go with C5 Corvette front calipers and rotors, and a 4th gen rear end with disc brakes to get performance pads in the rear. Maybe even go with a C5 Corvette brake booster, too. The solid rear axle is old, 70s lazy technology that GM and Ford wanted to keep in the pony cars and a C4 Corvette independent rear suspension is a good way to go if you could eliminate the rear seats (and didn't want a C4).

Btw I just remembered that I have the stock V8 cross member from my 3rd gen left over from my LS1 swap that you can have for free if you could pick it up, I don't know your location though.

And my rear end kill count stands at 6, once I did all the bolt ons after my LS swap I once fragged one by just flooring it in 3rd gear with no clutch at all. Then I had a custom 4 link built with a ford 8.8 Put in. The rear ends in 3rd and 4 gens is not up to the task when you can make so much power so easily

In reply to Mr_Clutch42:

Your brothers must have been beat on. Mine didn't crash of flop around at all. I would describe it as pretty tight. I much prefer a third gen to a fourth gen.

Looking at it objectively, with all that's been said, the Supra would be the better starting point as it's lighter, has pretty large 4 wheel discs, and has IRS, but it's a given power is easier to make with a SBC. I don't suppose it would be too hard to throw a turbo on my car and lightly boost it.

Truthfully, I really didn't know a lot about 3rd gens, and this thread answered my questions. My main concerns with my car were limited tire size and a non existent aftermarket. I think that creatively both of those can be addressed, but it always seemed like F bodies were a better bang for buck.

Thanks for the info guys!

Solid axle doesn't bother me as much, that's what I had to learn to drive fast on. The back breaking ride and the skiddish behavior was a non issue to me until I found how how good IRS is.

I bought a 1987 305 tpi 5 speed Iroc convertible Dec 2015. I really like the convertible 3rd gen cars profile with the trunk. I previously - like 13 years ago - had a 1992 trans am convertible with the same drive train. They are really fun to drive with the standard. The lessor optioned (non Iroc, TA, Formula) cars I drove recently left much to be desired performance wise in stock form. I would skip those and only look at the higher optioned cars. TA's are pretty capable even stock, provided they have not had the crap beaten out of them.

There are still a lot of used parts around and it is easy to find cheap cars but we are also at the point now where prices are rising on clean original well optioned cars. A clean low mile 5 speed iroc convertible sold just yesterday on ebay for $17,500.

I personally think the 4th gen 1998-2002 TA's right now are the best F body deal out there for performance, looks and ability to upgrade - LS1 and T56 stock?? Come on that's the perfect starting point. I will likely look for one of those after the Iroc.

A Thirdgen Trans Am or Formula Firebird with the Ws6 suspension package, is a great handling car out the box. The Tuned Port injected 5 Spd LB9 305 cars were high 14 second cars could pull .90g in the skidpad

I think its funny soo many people have so much disdain torwards the Thirdgen F-body. Yes the earlier models, and the ones without the performance packages were not all that great, Yes some guy with a mullet blaring white snake probably cut you off in one (Sorry about that). That doesnt make them bad cars. The Late 80's Trans Am, Formula, and IROC versions were pretty kick ass handling cars out the box.

They seem to be a love em or hate em kind of car. You could build a thirdgen that would handle just as good if not better than a Mk2 Supra for much less money. A 1988 and up TPI T5 305 firebird with the WS6 suspension package,a Set of Koni's, and Ground Control adjustable springs, would get you there easily. uprgades are a click away on jegs and summit all day long.

With that said. dollar for dollar a fourthgen V8 6spd car would give you the most bang for your buck. They are Faster, have a better Drive train, brakes and front suspension design. everything that applies to a thirdgen can be done to a fourthgen and it will wind up being faster and better handling.

If I had your budget, id be shopping for a LS 6spd 4th gen, or a C4 corvette.

In reply to midniteson:

My red one above was a WS6 car. I have not driven one that was not a WS6 so I'm not sure how they compare. But I agree, having owned and driven a third gen, I don't know how they get such a bad rep.