learn me BMW 3 series

Ok I'm telling on myself with this one. I'm a dunce when it comes to beemers. But here recently they've been becoming more and more attractive with some of the E46 cars dropping down to the 5k mark. So what I'm asking is; what are the differences in them from e30s to e46s. What am I looking at? Problems to look for? Powerplant differences, common issues?

Help a guy out! Thanks :)

E30s are the perfect car. Everything that follows is faster but less fun. Seriously, the E30 is an excellent car, but they are all pretty aged by now and they are to the point of being half-collectible and are commanding some prices that make me scratch my head. You can buy a much newer E36 for the same money. I'll let people who actually own them chime in with what to look for. For the E30, timing belts are critical. Rust can be a problem. Suspension parts wear out and a full bushing replacement is likely due. Most of the problems involve the 'features' like the check panel, power windows/sunroof, etc. Upholstery is junk. Heater cores can leak. Radiators have never been a BMW strong suit. Rubber driveshaft guibos and motor mounts can fail. And the only one you want is the 325i/is; anything less is only half the fun.

Comparing the E30 to the E46 mentioned by the OP is apples to oranges IMO. The rear suspension is better on the E36 and E46 than the E30.

The E46 is heavier but the interior is nicer, the engine blocks are aluminum instead of iron (E36) and if in very good condition, do not look like a 12 year old car. There are many more gearing options on the E46 than the E36.

Adding power is expensive so wait for a clean car with the biggest engine you can afford. The oil pump gear nut can fall off, the high performance models (ZHP) usually have loctite on this nut from the factory, some tuners add a safety wire. There are tales of the rear subframe ripping through the trunk floor, so check the mounting points under the car.

Vorshlag runs BMWs in autox and has extensive threads on their cars. They go to great lengths ($$$) for weight reduction (they've reskinned two BMWs to remove the sunroofs). They also sell LS1 kits for E36 and working on E46s.

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39

I agree that the car you want is an "IS" but I will argue that the 318is can be a fun car too.. and pretty rare.

Sadly, the E36 is the underdog in this choice. The E30 is more of less the "perfect" car and the first of the modern BMWs.. this makes it a fun to drive car that is also easy to work on.

The E46 is less easy to work on, is heavier, but also more powerful and better built than the E36, but lacks the "soul" the e30 has.

The E36 is more complicated and less fun to drive than the E30, but is also larger, more powerful, and more modern looking, but it is also down on power and put together less well than the E46.

The M3 also got a way different engine than the European version.. putting it down on power to the E46.

I personally think the 318ti is the perfect compromise between the E30 and the E36. It is simpler and due to that, better put together than the other E36s, but it's E30 derived rear suspension makes it a lot more fun to drive

I bought a 98 E36 M3 sedan (M3/4/5) 4 years ago and love it as a DD. The 3.2 has plenty of power, lots of interior room for the class of car, repair and maintenance parts are cheap (just don't "money shift"), gets good gas milage around town and it still turns heads.

There are better track cars, there are better autocross cars and there are cars that get better gas milage on the highway but for an urban DD I cannot think of a better car than an E36 M3/4/5

I'm on my 3rd E30. The 1st was an 88 325i Cabrio, the next was a 91 M3. I had to sell it due to orders overseas. (Let me pause for a second)...................... The next IS a 90 325i 5Sp 4Door. I bought this E30 just a year ago in pretty bad shape. Check this recent thread I started : http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1802822

I also have a Z3 MCoupe. Since getting the E30 on the road in October, I actually PREFER driving it daily. Easy to work on, no electronic gadgets, and sturdy. Our goal is to use this E30 as a FUN project car. We'll track it as much as we can, and my Son can DD it to school next year.

Search, you'll find a good deal somewhere..

Down the line, I might get an E36 M3 4/5 for the wife. That's our next project.

Good Luck!

Being an autocross addict, the E36 was the choice for me. An E46 would probably be the safest buy for most people, but it is the least interesting to look at. The E46 and E39 were definitely some low points for BMW styling.

I don't know what can be considered "modern" about the E30. It's definitely better than the E21. It did have ABS and an airbag added in the later years. The 1991 318 at least had a slightly more modern engine. Otherwise it is thoroughly a 1970s design, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Terry Fair owner of Vorshlag has pretty much ruled out E30s after his experiences working with them. He certainly talked me out of them.

HStockSolo wrote: The E46 and E39 were definitely some low points for BMW styling.

Having owned e30, e36, e46 and e39 BMWs and following them for quite some time, I don't think I've ever read that sentiment on the web. Most folks consider the e39 the pinnacle of 5 series styling! That's what makes our car obsession so much fun. Different strokes for different folks!

I think the E39 was the prettiest of the 5ers... been downhill ever since

Thanks for the info guys!

I've owned a 87 325is (E30) and currently own a 97 M3 Coupe (E36)

The E30 is the perfect size. It is small enough to be flingable, but large enough to carry 4 adults in comfort and still have a decent trunk. They are built like tanks, and grown on you the more you drive them. Although my E36 is much faster, I still miss some things about the E30.

The E36 has it's faults (door panels / headliner's become unglued, cooling system needs to be replaced every 100K or so) but it is a much more refined car. (quieter, more features, much better highway mile eater) The E36 M3 is one of the best handling cars ever built. It is so easy to drive at the limit, and always lets you know what it is going to do before it does it. It makes an average driver feel like a hero.

Condition is key. Buy the very best example you can afford of either model and you'll be happy. The E36 M3 is a big step up from the standard model, so I'd hold out for an M3 if shopping the E36 Chassis. If you prefer the E30, I'd hold out for a very clean 325is. The 318is is very nice, but quite a bit less powerful.

The E46 Chassis cars have a much nicer interior, but they are larger, heavier, and they understeer in stock form. The M3 pulls like a rocket, but is more complex than it's forebears. I've never owned one, so I'll defer to others for advice.

Oh, and BMW cars are Bimmers, the bikes are Beemers.

Thanks for the heads up. The E36 M3 is on the radar, I just don't want someone's track beater. It will have to be 2 door no matter what I end up with just because of SWMBO. 4 doors are "FAMILY" cars, we don't have one yet, therefore till we do, IT HAS TO HAVE 2 DOORS! (I bought her a 4 door integra a year ago, and she refused to drive it unless he HAD to) Gotta love it! :D

Sorry bout the beemer/bimmer screwup

The other one I'm looking at is something like a 330 2 door, Sooooo pretty. The E36 interiors that I've seen have all been kinda falling apart. Haven't seen the inside of an E30 in a LOOOOONG time.

HStockSolo wrote: I don't know what can be considered "modern" about the E30. It's definitely better than the E21. It did have ABS and an airbag added in the later years. The 1991 318 at least had a slightly more modern engine. Otherwise it is thoroughly a 1970s design, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Terry Fair owner of Vorshlag has pretty much ruled out E30s after his experiences working with them. He certainly talked me out of them.

That's what I've been saying since I bought mine - a lot of modern stuff packed into an old 70's car. I'm sure if you've got a track rat and much of the 'modern' stuff has been ripped out, the car is easy to work on, but if the goal is to keep it fairly original, the car can be... trying at times... and this coming from a guy who spends a lot of his time working on modern FWD cars.

The E36 isn't without its quirks either... like I want to find the German putz who put the coolant drain plug on the block behind the header, right above the o2 sensor and let him change the coolant every two years...

Fortunately, they built a ton of M3's and a lot of them got sent here, so finding and unmolested version - or a well cared for enthusiast's car - isn't too hard if you're willing to wait. I wouldn't immediately dismiss somebody's track-rat - especially if that's your intended use anyway. Often those are well cared for and already sorted.

Ian F wrote: The E36 isn't without its quirk either... like I want to find the German putz who put the coolant drain plug on the block behind the header, right above the o2 sensor and let him change the coolant every two years...

Take a plastic milk jug, cut it so it hugs the block with the cap pointing into a bucket. You will have a lot less mopping to do and only your finger tips will get soaked

Spinout007 wrote: Haven't seen the inside of an E30 in a LOOOOONG time.

I have most of one in my basement if you want to gaze at it

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Take a plastic milk jug, cut it so it hugs the block with the cap pointing into a bucket. You will have a lot less mopping to do and only your finger tips will get soaked

Yeah... I figured that out a long time ago. Learned the hard way.

Still... The Volvo T5 I'm working on right now also has a block drain. It's a nice valve fitting with a hose nipple on it. Attach hose, loosen the valve, coolant drains cleanly into ones container of choice. I'm becoming quite used to this after draining the coolant a dozen times in an effort to purge the system of green crap...

Ian F wrote: Fortunately, they built a ton of M3's and a lot of them got sent here, so finding and unmolested version - or a well cared for enthusiast's car - isn't too hard if you're willing to wait.

While I don't disagree with the numbers, values of unmolested e36 M3s seem to have leveled off lately. $10k seems to be the current floor for well cared copies that don't have tons of miles on them. That said, there are lots out there between $5k and $10k, but tough to find a nice one in that range.

Although I like the looks of the E36 M3/4/5 better than an E46 330i sedan with a manual transmission the earlier car seems hard to find at a normal price. For less money you can buy a 330i that has just a bit less performance (engine wise) and throw some suspension money at it to fix the handling.

How do people feel about the higher mileage manual trans E46s? I know they need a complete cooling system makeover.

It seems like the aluminum block I6s aren't as reliable as the earlier iron block I6s--the S54 still used an iron block. My choice would be a 1996-1998 328i/is, at least now that I know the LSD option was still available in 1996 (crazy SCCA Solo classing talking here.) I do like the 330i ZHP shift knob.

I don't think many buy BMWs based on their appearance, but I really don't get what people see in the jelly bean models. That look is so dated--like early nineties Oldsmobile. Now the M-Technic E36 front end can be pretty awkward looking from some angles especially on coupes, but at least it is fairly unique.

I'm still looking and learning, but I want something that will allow me to use it for an occasional trackday/autoX but I'm keeping the Miata, and it will likely be getting some "parts" I just don't want to drive it every day anymore. I love it, it will remain in our lives, but I think the Toys "r" us song is getting a little quieter in my head finally.

E46 Subframe Failure... A repair that can cost from $3,000 - $10,000.

Personally, E30 > E36M3 > E36 > E46.

This is coming from someone who was an advisor in a past life and has personally owned a 2005 330i ZHP and now owns a 1989 325i.

If you want bling, get the E46. If you want reliable speed, get something else.

bluesideup wrote: How do people feel about the higher mileage manual trans E46s? I know they need a complete cooling system makeover.

My stepson's '02 325i Sport had 250k miles on it and was stil going strong. The cooling system is EASY to work on (wwhich is good, as it needs it at higher miles). And so long as you dont' get the M3, the parts are cheap, too (an OEM water pump for his 325i was $50 and took a half hour to install in the driveway. An M3 version is over $500.

THe E46 drove so much better than the E36, too. But the E36 can be had much cheaper. We recently bought this 325i for his GF for $1200 needing front window regulators ($100 each with a lifetime warranty):

J308 wrote: E46 Subframe Failure... A repair that can cost from $3,000 - $10,000. Personally, E30 > E36M3 > E36 > E46. This is coming from someone who was an advisor in a past life and has personally owned a 2005 330i ZHP and now owns a 1989 325i. If you want bling, get the E46. If you want reliable speed, get something else.

Curious to know how many subframe failures you actually saw during your time as (presumably a BMW) advisor. Understandably, BMW has never released such numbers.

J308 wrote: E46 Subframe Failure... A repair that can cost from $3,000 - $10,000.

For a DIY it costs about $10 in scrap metal and MIG wire. I'm not trying to be a prick - it is a time consuming job but very easy to fix once you get in there. Unless the rear ripped out and hit a parked car I am at a loss to understand a cost of $10k to fix it. Must be in dealer money in NYC or something.

Or, for those of us not handy with a welder, the aftermarket supplies a handy dandy kit for only $140 bucks from Turner. As GPS pointed out, it's not simple to get in there, but it's not that expensive either.