I've found very little explanation over what it is or any information on it other than, "It reduces piston friction" or "It's a technology from F1 racing". I've heard about it at Watkins Glen before (where I grew up originally) being used in brake components, but even way back then, the conversations were over my head and were not something I was interested in learning more about. Does anybody know anything about it or have a few links, so I could educate myself? Thank you!
Nobody?
No such thing, at least as you spelled it. Are you asking about carbon ceramic?
No, definitely Carbon Ceramide. It was a coating used on pistons as well according to every magazine article I can find in regards to the Toyota engine 1NR-FE.
I know what carbon ceramic is, and I'd hope anybody who is on this forum would. Thank you very much though!
Here's a blurb from several different articles regarding the name....
"The 1NR-FE is a compact inline four piston engine featuring "Stop & Start" technology and Dual VVT-i. It was introduced into European market in late 2008 with the Yaris XP9F. Improved engine performance combined with low emissions and fuel consumption was the principal aim during its development.
Advanced engineering has been applied throughout the 1NR-FE engine. Toyota engineers streamlined the engine's intake channel, used computer simulation to optimise airflow, smoothened all surfaces for less turbulence and rounded off all angles and sharp edges inside the engine. One of the key elements of the 1NR-FE engine is its piston design. Smaller and lighter than on the previous 1.3 L unit, they are designed with a smaller contact area and use carbon ceramide, an advanced material commonly used in Formula One engineering, to reduce friction. The engine also features cooled exhaust gas recirculation (cold area specification models only) to reduce pumping losses and reduce NOx emissions."
Well you're right that there's no info out there on this specific coating other than that relating to the Toyota 1NR-FE. There are other friction-reducing piston coatings out there though.
It sounds like something similar to what Swain Tech does to pistons / engine internals:
Translation errors gone wild.
According to the (otherwise) omniscient Wikipedia, a "ceramide" is a "waxy lipid molecule", and "lipids" are "substances of biological origin"...To the best of my understanding, not something that would do well in a combustion environment.
If everybody is just running the same blurb, it's copy and pasted from a press release. I'm 98.7% certain Toyota meant "carbon ceramic" when the press release came out about that engine, and not knowing any better, everybody else just ran with it.
Oddly enough, it's even on some of the EU websites, but nothing seems to relate the info, nor any F1 info I can locate. Very odd scenario that so many publications the world over would republish others information.
MugenReplica wrote: Very odd scenario that so many publications the world over would republish others information.
Not really. That's basically the whole point of press releases.
MugenReplica wrote: I've found very little explanation over what it is or any information on it other than, "It reduces piston friction" or "It's a technology from F1 racing". I've heard about it at Watkins Glen before (where I grew up originally) being used in brake components, but even way back then, the conversations were over my head and were not something I was interested in learning more about. Does anybody know anything about it or have a few links, so I could educate myself? Thank you!
Why would something used to reduce friction be used in brakes?
Unless it's the pistons inside the caliper?
Coatings can wear off. Id rather change the metal itself to be less frictive.
Something like what WPC does...
WPC Treatment creates a super smooth surface by using very small, very high speed material to micro shot-peen the metal. Pretty sweet. I would think that piston skirts, cylinder liners, wrist pins, main bearings, cam lobes, turbo impeller/turbine stems and the like would all be improved with this kind of treatment. The term "air bearing" is tossed around in the vid below. Pretty freaking sweet.
The downside is that WPC treatment is vastly more expensive than ceramic coating, or just about any other surface treatment for that matter.
Marketing wank
In reply to z31maniac:
On the one hand, the same family of materials can be used for wildly different applications. On the other hand, you're probably right that even if they intended to say "carbon ceramic" it could have technically been an inaccurate term as well. I'm wondering if it may be something along the lines of a Diamond-Like-Carbon (DLC) coating...But either way, likely not 'carbon-ceramic' as we generally know it.
Driven5 wrote: In reply to z31maniac: On the one hand, the same family of materials can be used for wildly different applications. On the other hand, you're probably right that even if they intended to say "carbon ceramic" it could have technically been an inaccurate term as well. I'm wondering if it may be something like a Diamond-Like-Carbon coating...But either way, likely not 'carbon-ceramic' as we generally know it.
OP is adamant he's not asking about Carbon Ceramic.
Driven5 wrote: Translation errors gone wild. According to the (otherwise) omniscient Wikipedia, a "ceramide" is a "waxy lipid molecule", and "lipids" are "substances of biological origin"...To the best of my understanding, not something that would do well in a combustion environment. If everybody is just running the same blurb, it's copy and pasted from a press release. I'm 98.7% certain Toyota meant "carbon ceramic" when the press release came out about that engine, and not knowing any better, everybody else just ran with it.
I also think that this is probably an error in a press release that got reproduced. All of the articles I found with a google search were essentially the same copy. I don't find any relevant patents and there are no SAE or ISO papers discussing carbon ceramide.
I've also seen press release errors that were reproduced.
I wonder if they're rebranding Cermet? wikiwiki
I know that people were using that with some success to replate rotary rotor housings & endplates.
WonkoTheSane wrote: I wonder if they're rebranding Cermet? wikiwiki I know that people were using that with some success to replate rotary rotor housings & endplates.
That's really exceptional info. I've never seen this. I'm going to look into this further and see if I can get a better clarification of what the material used is/was.
Glad it helped, let us know what you end up with :)
At first I thought it might be a combination of ceramic and aramid.
spitfirebill wrote: At first I thought it might be a combination of ceramic and aramid.
Who knows, it may be. I have a friend in Japan and he works with Toyota and Mitsubishi for some outsourcing. He said he'd ask and see if he could find out. Anything I find out, I'll post here.
Ok...After having slept on it, I'm changing my answer.
Much like you can reverse engineer a product, you can reverse marketeer a statement.
Regardless of what the marketeers are trying to imply in the press release, they're not going to put anything exotic into one of Toyota's entry level engines. Implying exceedingly unspecific relationships between entry level products and hyper-exotic products means a tenuous-at-best relationship, that is pushing the boundaries of any definitions...Not to mention honesty, integrity, and good taste.
A coating having been applied to the pistons is something that can't really be stretched. Either it is or it isn't coated. In this case then, it is.
I'm going to skip down to the purpose of it being friction reduction. Again, either it is or it isn't. So it's a coating that reduces friction.
Moving on, they're saying it's a "carbon-ceramide" coating. Let's break this term down to its base elements, since we dont' really know their intention here. Leading with the word carbon, implies primarily carbon based. This is more difficult (but certainly not impossible) to stretch the definition of. I'm going to stick with that as well though.
However, while there is little doubt in my mind that ceramide was a translation error, there is more than one possibility of what the exact error was, since ceramic might also seem to technically be an error as well. One is that they mistranslated the definition for the word ceramide, another is that they mistranslated the word for ceramic. Even though there is a technical definition for these, these are terms that marketeers can more so play a bit fast-and-loose with. This is because even if something isn't technically a 'ceramic' that word can be easier for the layperson to get a basic understanding of what the material is/does. In this context both 'ceramide' and 'ceramic' could each lead me to my prediction in slightly different ways, although the former is still considerably less likely than the latter. Ceramide being a waxy substance, could potentially be both improperly translated and stretched to mean a lubricating coating. Ceramic might be also be improperly translated to basically mean a hard non-metallic coating. Either way, I'm sticking with carbon based. So that rules out traditional thermal barrier ceramic coatings, which to the best of my knowledge are neither carbon based nor friction reducing. Meanwhile coatings like DLC or cermet are probably far too expensive for significant use in an entry level application.
So we're looking for a carbon based (hard non-metallic and/or lubricating) coating that can be applied cheaply to entry level engine pistons as a means of reducing friction...
.
.
Essentially...Graphite. 
Driven5 wrote: Ok...After having slept on it, I'm changing my answer. Much like you can reverse engineer a product, you can reverse marketeer a statement. Regardless of what the marketeers are trying to imply in the press release, they're not going to put anything exotic into one of Toyota's entry level engines. Implying exceedingly unspecific relationships between entry level products and hyper-exotic products means a tenuous-at-best relationship, that is pushing the boundaries of any definitions...Not to mention honesty, integrity, and good taste. A coating having been applied to the pistons is something that can't really be stretched. Either it is or it isn't coated. In this case then, it is. I'm going to skip down to the purpose of it being friction reduction. Again, either it is or it isn't. So it's a coating that reduces friction. Moving on, they're saying it's a "carbon-ceramide" coating. Let's break this term down to its base elements, since we dont' really know their intention here. Leading with the word carbon, implies primarily carbon based. This is more difficult (but certainly not impossible) to stretch the definition of. I'm going to stick with that as well though. However, while there is little doubt in my mind that ceramide was a translation error, there is more than one possibility of what the exact error was, since ceramic might also seem to technically be an error as well. One is that they mistranslated the definition for the word ceramide, another is that they mistranslated the word for ceramic. Even though there is a technical definition for these, these are terms that marketeers can more so play a bit fast-and-loose with. This is because even if something isn't technically a 'ceramic' that word can be easier for the layperson to get a basic understanding of what the material is/does. In this context both 'ceramide' and 'ceramic' could each lead me to my prediction in slightly different ways, although the former is still considerably less likely than the latter. Ceramide being a waxy substance, could potentially be both improperly translated and stretched to mean a lubricating coating. Ceramic might be also be improperly translated to basically mean a hard non-metallic coating. Either way, I'm sticking with carbon based. So that rules out traditional thermal barrier ceramic coatings, which to the best of my knowledge are neither carbon based nor friction reducing. Meanwhile coatings like DLC or cermet are probably far too expensive for significant use in an entry level application. So we're looking for a carbon based (hard non-metallic and/or lubricating) coating that can be applied cheaply to entry level engine pistons as a means of reducing friction... . . Essentially...Graphite.
Thank you for the long detailed response. The other I can tell you as I haven't heard back from my friend in Japan, is that this engine (possibly because of the coating), has a 10 year, unlimited mile warranty via a recall as the pistons will build up excess carbon until the car is no longer able to idle. The recall covers a full teardown and new pistons (not sure if it is the same piston or not, but I'll check part#s). I received my recall a couple of month ago about it. Not sure if that helps determine a coating or a coating that would accelerate carbon build-up.
https://www.toyoheadquarters.com/threads/2012-2013-scion-iq-rough-idle-warranty-extension-zg8.876/
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