In reply to Carl Heideman :
Look forwardto more info. I’m seriously considering ditching the Ford EEC and going Holley if I keep my SN95 post challenge. I suspect on the same hard parts with the short runner carb intake it will make way more power and lose very little torque.
The appeal of drop on FI is strong. "It tunes itself!" and other dreamy promises.
Except it doesn't. And it costs a LOT. And dyno testing proves it makes no more power than a properly set up carb.
I'm not a neanderthal. I like fuel injection on production cars. But the benefits just don't outweigh the high cost and other negatives IMO. A carb is a toilet for fuel. They aren't that difficult if you take the time to learn them. Search "Thunderhead289" on YouTube and get a handle on them.
AnthonyGS said:In reply to Carl Heideman :
Look forwardto more info. I’m seriously considering ditching the Ford EEC and going Holley if I keep my SN95 post challenge. I suspect on the same hard parts with the short runner carb intake it will make way more power and lose very little torque.
If you already have EFI, I'd keep the layout you have, and just find a way to tune it yourself. There are a lot of 5.0l injected manifolds out there that are improvements to the original one.
ddavidv said:The appeal of drop on FI is strong. "It tunes itself!" and other dreamy promises.
Except it doesn't. And it costs a LOT. And dyno testing proves it makes no more power than a properly set up carb.
I'm not a neanderthal. I like fuel injection on production cars. But the benefits just don't outweigh the high cost and other negatives IMO. A carb is a toilet for fuel. They aren't that difficult if you take the time to learn them. Search "Thunderhead289" on YouTube and get a handle on them.
Only if you make the expensive choices. There are good and reliable low cost choices for EFI. MS, for instance.
And I'd love to challenge the person who can't tune EFI better than a carb. Especially when you transition from dyno testing to driving it in the real world.
OP- I know you want the "easy" button for a slap on EFI. Can anyone suggest doing port fuel injection? You can make those better than carbs, for sure.
Interesting, not much love it seems. To me they seem like a great product. Pull carb, replace with drop on tbi unit and done.
Yes I can see it being easily out preformed by a port injection system, but that's a whole other can of worms.
So what makes the Holley systems so much better?
I still like the idea, if it runs as well as a carb, I don't have to use a choke or deal with rich smell, I still like the idea. I am getting that it's not a perfect system. I would like the option to modify tunes, but it sounds like they are all locked.
In reply to alfadriver :
Yes easy button is what I'm looking for. I realize the fuel system is far more complex with efi, but it all has to be redone right now anyway, seems like running a high pressure and return isn't that much more work.
81cpcamaro said:To Floating Doc, you can tune the GM TBI systems pretty easily. Gearhead EFI site helped me a bunch on the tuning. Also, since you have a small block, just need to get the 454 TBI unit for more flow (670 cfm, 2" bores). Can use your injectors or the 454 ones with tuning.
yep. Gearhead EFI forum is a ginormous and invaluable technical resource for tons of OE EFI systems, especially the GM stuff.
In reply to java230 :
Funny, I posted a very similar question 6 months ago and the responses were more positive than here.
I’ve had the Holley sniper on my wish list for some time, and that is the solution I would recommend given the reviews I’ve read. There is a data cable you can buy to tune with a laptop instead of letting it figure things out for itself. They even make drop in tanks for certain classics to make the efi conversion that much easier.
Holley 2bbl EFI units are cheap ish, $850. Any reason not to do that vs the 4bbl?
Says up to 350hp.
This is the best info I can find on the engine specs.... But should be under 350, even if I do a cam at some point.
V-392
Brake H.P. (Max) @ RPM 235.6 @ 4000
Brake H.P. (Net) @ RPM 191 @ 3600
Torque (Max) Lb. Ft. @ RPM 356.5 @ 2800
Torque (Net) Lb. Ft. @ RPM 307 @ 2400
I'll add a couple more things that may be helpful.
java230 said:Interesting, not much love it seems. ....
....I still like the idea, if it runs as well as a carb, I don't have to use a choke or deal with rich smell, I still like the idea. I am getting that it's not a perfect system. I would like the option to modify tunes, but it sounds like they are all locked.
People need to keep in mind that the TBI products were created for people who neither know, or want to know, anything about internal combustion fuel delivery. It was actually a way to avoid the whole thing.
As to having more access to the "Tune"? Not sure what relevant parameters are not available? Or what the point of giving access to the 3D fuel map would be for this product and its intended market? Seems like opening up the firmware for these products to the average buyer would be like giving the kindergarten class a box of hand grenades. I mean, some smart kids will figure it out eventually, but....
If you WANT to be a EFI tunner, then MS or HP Tuner studio is your path.
One thing not mentioned in the discursion is the ease with which you can get lost tuning the TBI. You start changing things willy-nilly until you reach a point where your changes are fighting themselves and you cant really recall what or why you made a change. I must have hit the "reset to new" about six times so far. I KNOW that you should be more disciplined and only make one change at a time and keep a spreadsheet of changes and observed results and data-log all the test drived. But who does that E36 M3?
In reply to Carl Heideman :
Thanks for the input, I think the Holley is winning simply because of the ability to tune if desired. FiTech locking you out is silly IMO.
The "returnless master kit" with the drop in pump looks pretty damn slick too. I will have to see what kind of tank space I have when the project shows up.
NOHOME said:One thing not mentioned in the discursion is the ease with which you can get lost tuning the TBI. You start changing things willy-nilly until you reach a point where your changes are fighting themselves and you cant really recall what or why you made a change. I must have hit the "reset to new" about six times so far. I KNOW that you should be more disciplined and only make one change at a time and keep a spreadsheet of changes and observed results and data-log all the test drived. But who does that E36 M3?
If one is very careful in their tuning, you can separate out the steady state maps and then the warmed up transient maps and then the start to warm up "steady state" adjustments and finally, the warm up transient adjustments. In theory, you can get into the same circular problems with PFI....
But you have to keep track of what you are doing, and have the proper feedback.
To me, I'd only go TBI if I only had access to a manifold that was just for a carb. Otherwise, most engines have a PFI manifold available to it, which is a much better way to have EFI.
I know it looks really complicated, but, really, there are a LOT of people here that can walk people through PFI and tuning it.
In reply to alfadriver :
PFI isnt really an option on this motor. A couple people make manifolds, but at RIDICULOUS prices. One just says "if you have to ask its not for you". Literally.
java230 said:In reply to alfadriver :
PFI isnt really an option on this motor. A couple people make manifolds, but at RIDICULOUS prices. One just says "if you have to ask its not for you". Literally.
And that's the exact reason that these carb replacements are the best option. :)
Still, the concepts are the same, so many people here will be more than happy to help you tune it.
alfadriver said:AnthonyGS said:In reply to Carl Heideman :
Look forwardto more info. I’m seriously considering ditching the Ford EEC and going Holley if I keep my SN95 post challenge. I suspect on the same hard parts with the short runner carb intake it will make way more power and lose very little torque.
If you already have EFI, I'd keep the layout you have, and just find a way to tune it yourself. There are a lot of 5.0l injected manifolds out there that are improvements to the original one.
If you knew in detail how antiquated and awful the Ford EEC IV system is, you’d feel a bit differently. The spark control is dangerously inadequate above 5,500 rpm. The number of sensors and wiring is ridiculous and expensive to repair and maintain.
I know how to tune it too, but something much simpler and more modern has lots of appeal.
In reply to AnthonyGS :
Actually, I do know exactly how "antiquated" the EECIV is. That really was state of the art back in 1993. The EECV was better, as were every Ford ECU that came after it. What I didn't like about the IV was that you could not flash it in the car- you needed a special chip flashing tool. But at least the later ones could be reflashed over and over again for development.
What makes you think spark above 5000 rpm is bad? I've not looked at a wiring diagram of a V8 EEC IV for 25 years, but I don't recall it being super complex. IIRC the IV has a 65 pin connector, vs. the 105 on the V.
But if you don't like it, replacing it with an MS is really easy. That's more my point.
Soooo learn me more, my engine is roughly 180 HP, or as follows.
V-392
Brake H.P. (Max) @ RPM 235.6 @ 4000
Brake H.P. (Net) @ RPM 191 @ 3600
Torque (Max) Lb. Ft. @ RPM 356.5 @ 2800
Torque (Net) Lb. Ft. @ RPM 307 @ 2400
Larger FiTech unit is available locally used, the 200-800HP model. Would the injectors really just be too big on 180 HP?
java230 said:Soooo learn me more, my engine is roughly 180 HP, or as follows.
V-392
Brake H.P. (Max) @ RPM 235.6 @ 4000
Brake H.P. (Net) @ RPM 191 @ 3600
Torque (Max) Lb. Ft. @ RPM 356.5 @ 2800
Torque (Net) Lb. Ft. @ RPM 307 @ 2400
Larger FiTech unit is available locally used, the 200-800HP model. Would the injectors really just be too big on 180 HP?
If you’re looking to put it on the Travelall I just don’t see a reason to go with the larger unit, but I would call FITech and pose the question to them. You’ll also may get a feel for their support (another reason I went with Holley).
Having installed all of them, the two standouts are msd and holly.
Use a tanks in pa4 for in tank pump. Quality and simple.
Regardless of whatever system you go with you have to be very careful about electromagnetic interference. That's been what's been kicking my ass on the megasquirt set up in my duster for a couple of years. A good MSD box for a clean tach signal seems to be the simplest readily available solution for most.
Yeah I agree on the Holley being better, but they don't come up used cheap.... if I go new, it will be with Holley.
And yes for the IH
Are you planning on any other changes to the engine besides the EFI conversion?
In reply to alfadriver :
Probably try to do electronic ignition just to ditch the points at some point. In which case Holley could control spark.
Cams are available, but not sure it's worth putting and $ into the old IH engine.
Was thinking efi as the fuel system needs to be redone anyway.
In reply to java230 :
With those changes, the fuel system isn't going to net much power. It *should* give you better driveability- but that's very much dependent on how flexible the system is and how well it's tuned.
And just going to electronic ignition- same thing.
Fully digital spark could net you some better performance- especially light throttle (where performance is measured in MPG).
If you are willing to sink somewhere near $1000 on a fuel and spark system, why don't you want to spend the money on a new cam? That will also help you profile the engine perfornace to match how you are going to use it.
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