Learn Me: Fiat 124 Spider

Dirt cheap and six hundred pounds lighter than an MGB!? Why aren't more people building them? Do they suck in some profound way other than just being a rust-prone old Fiat? Has GRM ever done a buyer's guide type article on them?

Best garage art I ever owned

I think they were so good out of the box that they didn't get modded like the MG's did because they didn't need constant tinkering.

The only automotive regret I have revolves around a 124 spider I passed up for 1800 bucks that had been meticulously maintained back in the 80's.

One of the very first mass production cars with a timing belt so many of them were broken and they gained a reputation for unreliability as a result. You will find that many of us on this board are huge fans of them, way ahead of their time.

You either want an early or a late one though, the middle years after they added smog crap but before they bumped displacement and added fuel injection were pretty down on power.

Keep it dry and out of the salt, I think it's 3yr/36k MAX on the timing belt, valve adjustment is annoying (shim over bucket, after wiping a cam in a SOHC that runs the same shims, I'd recommend only using new shims slathered in cam lube), expect to clean and grease some grounds. I recall reading that where the rear axle links tie into the body likes to rust out, look there.

IIRC the smog ones drove the air pump off the timing belt, you can guess what happens when it inadvertently locks up (hint: it's an interference engine). Good idea to delete that.

ok.. I have had a plethora of these.

Rust: It is rumoured that Fiat used cheap Soviet steel that they were given in payment for setting up the lada factory (the lada being based on the 124 sedan). This steel was not melted at a high enough temp to burn off all the slag, so supposedly it had built in rust when the car was still on the assembly line.

It -is- known that most of the problems that fiat had in the 70s and 80s stems not from bad design, but from bad dealers. There were no stand alone dealers, they were always tacked onto something else.. just imagine some poor mechanic used to working on luxurious Caddys being forced to work on a metric Fiat..

Places to find rust. The Sills to start. The outer cover comes off with a few screws, it is purely cosmetic and contributes no strength to the car.. neither does the structural sill underneath. All the strength of the car is in the transmission tunnel. You can literally have no sills and the doors will still open and close smoothly. As for rust in the sills, look up in the front fender, it starts where the fender meets the sill and works down from there. At the rear of the sill it starts in the same place. It also starts at the bottom of the sill due to drainage (or lack of) for the convertible top. It simply pours into the sill and is left to find it's own way out (sorta like a Miata.)

The rear fender lips are rust traps as well. Also check the intake for the heater at the base of the windshield. Again, the cover comes off with a few screws. Underneath you will probably find a tree's worth of pine needles and leaves trying to make the car rust with trapped water.

As noted above, the rear suspension points are prone to rust.. as are the shock "turrets" in the front.

The biggest years with rust are the mid to late seventies. Fiat was selling so many cars that they were literally strapping them to the decks of the ships and bringing them over. Then the dealers would collect them, undercoat them, and never bother to wash the salt off of the underside. 1977 is the worst year due to this.

Engine wise, these are pretty robust little cars that love to rev. They don't make a lot of power stock, (I think the turbo made all of 120hp and most of the carbed cars were in the 80s) 1600s and 1800s rev the most, 2000s not so much do to poor valve overlap (easily fixed with a pair of cams) Except for the aforementioned timing belt and air pump issues, (fiat learned on that and moved it to the regular fanbelt later) they are good engines, but do not expect them to remain leak free even when rebuilt. We are not talking gallons of oil leaking out, but enough escapes to keep the transmission tunnel and firewall rust free for decades.

The biggest issue with the timing belt was again, the dealers. The original owners had a big share of this too. Imagine yourself in the 70s and being told that your car needs a "fan belt" every 20,000 miles.. you would think you are getting ripped off. Many engines died a horrible death of valves punching through pistons (and worse) due to people thinking they were being taken for a ride by the dealer.

The timing belt is not hard to do.. I had it down to less than an hour. the hardest part is draining the coolant as the output from the head passed through the loop of the belt, so you need to unbolt it to get it off or on.

Valve adjustments are not hard, tedious, but not hard. With the shims atop the buckets, they were easier than alfas. It was just a matter of measuring the gap, pulling the old shim (easily done with a special tool to depress the bucket) checking it's size, and adding the gap to that size (or taking away if too tight) and putting the new shim in. As noted above, try to use new shims whenever possible (yes you can still get them)

Transmissions are weak. Fiat used the springs to hold the car in gear instead of helping you get the car out of gear. the Shift Forks are weak too and bend easily. Avoid speed shifting and you should be fine... which is a shame as the fiat transmission, while it has a long throw, is super smooth and just begs to be abused.

Brakes are marginal. 9 inch non-vented rotors all around with the hand brake working on the rear rotors. The handbrake will always make your car fail inspection if they do a rolling test. Even with brand new pads, rotors, calipers, and even a handbrake cable.. they are still weak. Been there, done that.

The suspension is nice.. unequal a-arms up front with a solid rear in the rear held together with a 4 link set up with a panhard rod. A little skitterish on rough roads, but usually well planted if soft. Konis and lowering springs are available as are swaybars (there is no swaybar on the rear) You will curse the engineer who decided to put the rear shocks inside the springs.. especially once you see how the spring mounts are welded to the top of the axle.

The interior is very nice, the wood may crack. Cars up to 1979 used real wood (well, plywood with a nice veneer)and from 79 onwards were more like formica. The dashboards all crack around the defogger vents. The seats do come unthreaded, but are comfy and easily fixed. The convertible top is the absolute best in the business, I am unsure if it has ever been bested, it is a simple two clips at the windshield and drop. The rear quarter glass drops with the top and the rear window is "welded" to the top.. If you feel like ruining the driver's seat, you ran raise or lower it without getting out of the car.

The other big bug bear (aside from the rust) is the electrical. Clean all the grounds and make sure they are well secured and you should be golden. The battery is in the trunk, so if it boils over, you -will- smell it.

Most parts are still available.. mechanically, electrically, and body wise. Be aware that almost all spiders have had their "noses" bumped. Even when the big heavy bumpers (1975 on) the hood overhangs and is generally the first thing to get tapped.

I can't think of anything else at the moment.. but I am sure I will.

My cousin had one of these. I can't remember which year, late 70s though. It had it's share of annoying electrical problems. But it was a hoot to drive. It reminded me of driving a go cart. The engine liked to rev well also. It had a removable hard top that looked cool.

A few more quirks about these cars I remembered.

these are not deal breakers, but things to be aware of.

Driving: Expect the "Italian ape" position. Wheel is very flat and too far away, pedals are too close. If you have a bad knee or hip, you will never get comfortable

Some of the interior lighting is by fibreoptics (yes, really) all the centre console lighting for the heating system is lit by one lamp under the dash with a bundle of plastic fibre optic cables. If you do any work to the heater switch or the controls, carefully unclip them, do -not- cut them.

Heating: These cars have enough BTUs to melt your socks.. which is right where the heat is. Your right sock will catch on fire as the heater only throws heat onto the floor of the windshield. Do not expect to blend them together, it is all or nothing. Same with the "temperature" control slider.. consider it an off/on switch. Pre-79 cars had under dash vents to channel cool air onto your legs at high velocity.

Also, the heater control valve is next to your passenger's left foot. While easily replaced, any leaks will be quickly apparent by steam, scalding of your passenger's leg, and a wet floor.

These cars have two dimmer switches. The chrome knob on the dash controls the gages. The slide rotary is only for the centre console.

Next to the chrome knob in the centre of the dash for the dimmer is the high/low wiper switch. While the on/off and delay switch is a lever on the column, the switch for fast and slow is on the dash. This also speeds up the delay.

High Beam switch is a separate lever on the column as well, you can pull it back for "flash to pass" or raise or lower (I can't remember which) to turn the highs on. The turn signal switch is a depressingly ordinary lever.

Make sure the four way flasher works. Your regular turn signals also run through that switch, so if it is broken, they may behave oddly or not work at all.

On the pre-79 Spider 2000 cars, the hood and trunk are death traps and finger removers. The front hood uses an ingeniously simple captured rod to hold it open at 90 degrees (pivoting from the front) but a breezy day and wiggle it around enough to pop it lose and drop it on you. Later cars used a spring loaded contraption that was much safer.

The trunk support on the early cars was a simple little spring loaded prop rod. A gust of wind could raise the trunk up allowing it to snap closed and drop the trunk on your head, your fingers, or on your keys if you left them in the trunk.

If you did lose your keys to the trunk, do not despair. Somebody else probably has been there too. Remove the license plate and you should probably find a neatly drilled hole in the middle. A slender straight slot screwdriver inserted into this hole and twisted will release the latch. If this hole is not there, you may want to consider it.

Onto the suspension.

Early cars have a more robust rear axle than the spider 2000 cars. It also comes with a 4.40 ratio for good acceleration, but not so good high end. It is a good thing the engine is smooth as 70mph comes at 4000rpms.

For a while there was a batch of bad ball joints. Looking at the front wheels there should be little to no camber. If you have a lot of negative camber, you need new balljoints. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. Get them done -NOW-. I had one of those bad ball joints go in less than 3000 miles. It broke apart into 4 distinct pieces when it went. Hopefully all those BJs are gone from the market, but you never know.

Also check the bolts that hold the front cross member on. They like to work their way lose with age and abuse (mostly abuse)

Brakes:

If the car pulls to one side going down the road but straightens up when braking, you have a warped caliper. Replace it. Rebuilding is only a temporary fix as it will return.

Do not try to bleed the rear brakes with the wheels off the ground. It has a load sensitive valve that cuts off brake pressure to the rears when the angle of the car equals a heavy "nose down" braking situation. Consider it a crude mechanical anti-lock system.

Engine: Check the oilpan for dents. It sits low and in front of the cross member, You can actually see it from the front of the car when it is simply parked. If it is dented on the bottom, you probably have a broken off pickup on the oilpump. Another sign of this is the engine is running half a quart of more over full. It does not seem to hurt the engine, but it is a pain to fix.

Some cars have fibre timing belt pulleys. They wear with age. Best to get a set of adjustable aluminum ones.

Oil pressure is about 40psi running and 10psi idling (hot) they got rid of the pressure gage in 79.

The temperature gage does not have a warning light.. it does have a switch to pin the needle if it gets too hot.

Body:

I added grease fittings to the hood hinges. They are exposed to weather as they are in front, and if they bind, will twist the whole hinge out of the hood.

Windows use a cable to go up and down. Not only will this give you a workout twisting your arm off, but they are usually noisy.

Clocks -never- work

Fuel gage is immediate. If you hit a bump or take a sharp corner, you can see the needle swing wildly. If low enough, this will also activate the low fuel light in a strobe like fashion.

There is only one turn signal repeater on the dash. It may look like two arrows, but it only has one lamp

Yes, the fuel filler is a brass pipe with machined threads for the cap. If you get a leak, the rubber elbow at the bottom is probably cracked.

some cars have mechanical fuel pumps on the engine driven off the cam jack shaft (also drives the oil pump and the distributer on very early cars) others have an electrical in the trunk. Stock pumps whirr. Facets tap. Both should come on with the key in "run"

Decent engine in a chassis that starts rusting the first time you get a heavy dew.

But where did you get the '600 lbs. lighter than an MGB'? You have been misinformed. Registration weight on a 1970 MGB convertible is 2138 lbs. and on a 1970 Fiat 124 Spider, 2082 lbs.

FYI, that is 56 lbs., not 600.....

pointofdeparture wrote: One of the very first mass production cars with a timing belt so many of them were broken and they gained a reputation for unreliability as a result. You will find that many of us on this board are huge fans of them, way ahead of their time.

Someone also told me here that if you rotate the engine backwards, it jumps time. Rotating backwards can be caused by parking in gear (lots of people don't use the handbrake, the cables sieze) or Dieseling in the summer, which has the engine running backwards on fuel in the exhaust system and hot spots in the chamber.

I have turned a 124/132 engine backwards by hand with no ill effects.

I'm not sure why it would jump turning backwards, if it's anything like the SOHC designed by the same guy, the tensioner can't move unless the bolt is loose.

Didn't make sense to me either, given the way harmonics worked, but someone a long time ago gave me a nastygram reply over our shop's policy of NEVER setting the handbrake on customer cars. It is more likely than not that the cables will not release. The retort was something like "do that on a Fiat and the timing belt will jump time".

Which, in a Darwinian way, would mean the engine is just too fragile to live. Kind of like the Diesels that are so fragile that you can't shut them off. At least that is the reason people give for why they will leave them idling for a half hour or more when they go into a store. Can't shut it off, it's really bad for the engine.

I have had mine since 1985 and it needs a full restoration. I'm planning on doing an abarth replica. One of the most beautiful cars ever made. The Lampredi engine is a gem.

In 1979 I was dating a girl at my (community) college. She was a competitive swimmer and swimsuit model, and she owned a red Fiat 124 spyder.

I cannot remember what she looked like but I can still see the deepest recesses of that car and clearly recall being atop and beneath it, but not her.

I also had one. Well, several if you include the parts cars and such. A rather nicely modified 2000 model.

All in all, it was a car I wanted to like a lot more than I actually did.

Steering is recirculating ball. So it feels just as vague and sloppy as does a 1950's Buick. Sporty the steering is not.

Brakes...are there. That's all you can say good about them. How Fiat managed to make 4 wheel disks work that poorly is miracle of Italian engineering.

The engine sings and the gearbox is perfectly matched to it, and one of the sweetest shifting boxes I've ever played with. This part of the car was remarkably right.

So all in all, the car was sadly unexciting to drive. Yes, the engine and gearbox were wonderful to operate, but the rest of the car was completely the opposite.

I've heard it has the best convertible top out there (in that time frame).

In reply to motomoron:

So in other words, she just used you.

Cant tell you anything about driving a 124, but I CAN tell you that if you pry the engine and gearbox out, and stuff it into an MG Midget, you will have a lot of fun AFTER you finish learning about interference engine design.

spitfirebill wrote: I've heard it has the best convertible top out there (in that time frame).

it is still one of the best manual convertible tops every made. I would rate it higher than the Miata's. It may not have a rear window you could unzip, but the side windows are glass and part of the top mechanism, they just drop down with the top.

As for steering, they are generally better than a buick. Yes, it is reciprocating ball, but in good nick, they are quite tight with little movement needed to turn the front wheels. Yours may have had a bad dampener which can lend itself to some sloppiness due to how the steering is set up. (it has a crossrod from box to dampener and the rod from the dampener controls the passenger side wheel. It may also have had bad joints, as all the heat from the engine is on that side and tends to bake the grease out.