Learn me: GM Gen V V8/6L80 as a swap candidate

In reply to STM317 :

Option 3 would be to buy an already-redone older type of drivetrain, which is what I was talking about, not a 200k mile pull-out. I fully understand the time vs $ bargain, which is why I suggested that.  Even buying all the "off the shelf" bits that supposedly play nice together, there will inevitably be something that goes wrong with the complication.  Versus buying a crate 250hp 350 and a remanufactured 200 4r or 700r4, which is a weekend swap.  Sure, stuff can go wrong any which way you go, but imo adding complexity to a simple system rarely adds reliability.  

Sort of off-topic, some here have mentioned torque converter issues on the 6 speed autos...is that on all of them, or are the ones in the HD trucks (2500/3500) different and more robust?

I know it wasn't the question, but why not keep it simple?

1) 350 or 383 crate motor

2) 700R4 (new torque converter and have trans rebuilt before install)

3) relocate fuel tank

4) install power steering 

5) install power brakes (vacuum or hydro boost)

6) Enjoy!

No wiring, ECU, AFM, fuel pump, or other issues to deal with when installing. Reliability and cruising should be nice with OD and fresh engine.  

If you really want to have more modern engine control, go with the long block instead of complete crate engine and add a standalone fuel injection system to it. 
 

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to STM317 :

Option 3 would be to buy an already-redone older type of drivetrain, which is what I was talking about, not a 200k mile pull-out. I fully understand the time vs $ bargain, which is why I suggested that.  Even buying all the "off the shelf" bits that supposedly play nice together, there will inevitably be something that goes wrong with the complication.  Versus buying a crate 250hp 350 and a remanufactured 200 4r or 700r4, which is a weekend swap.  Sure, stuff can go wrong any which way you go, but imo adding complexity to a simple system rarely adds reliability. 

I haven't shopped older small blocks very extensively, but a quick search returns basic package prices in the $7k -10k range

And that still needs all accessories, exhaust, mounts, wiring, etc. Yeah they'd be brand new, but they'd also still have a carb, and get something like 12-14mpg. I feel like we can do better than that now. A used LS or LT would offer better drivability, power, fuel economy and emissions for the same or less money than new crate versions of 50 year old tech.

With a little more shopping, it looks like entry point for a 350 with "up to 260hp" is $3500

It would still need a lot of parts, and some tuning to run but that's a more viable solution than I originally thought.

I'm just not sure if we'd get the final product that we want though if we were to go that route. More thinking and discussion will be required on that.

STM317 said:

So, it sounds like if I end up with an engine with AFM I've got three basic choices:

1) leave it alone and hope that things work out (potentially having to do expensive valve train work and a cam if there's a failure)

2) electronically disable AFM for a couple hundred bucks to reduce (but not eliminate) the chances of experiencing a failure

3) Go ahead and do the valve train/cam/tune work to delete AFM now instead of doing it all later when it's in the chassis.

Working backwards...

#2 is kind of moot.  You will need to go into the tune to disable VATS anyway, when you're in there you disable the AFM.  Extra cost = zero.  HPT dongle is four hundred bucks and comes with two credits, once you apply those credits you can tweak that computer any way you like in perpetuity.

#1 is over blown.  The expense is in that you have to PULL THE HEAD to replace the lifters.  Also, replacing the lifters too I suppose.  But the head has to come off to get to them, so now you are in to gaskets and bolts and such.

#3: The only cam failure I have personally dealt with was on a NON-DOD engine.  Specifically an 8100, but that engine is like a 5/4ths GenIV motor....

In reply to STM317 :

I just searched car-part.com and a 60k mile 350 out of a gmt400 is about a grand. As another option. 

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I have seen quite a few cam failures, still just the lifters is way more common, but I have seen more cam failures on Gen Vs than Gen3/4s

In reply to Opti :

Not saying that it doesn't happen.  But it doesn't seem to be AFM/DOD related.

Highly variable based on specifics but ~$500 gets you a DoD Delete kit with headbolts, gaskets, new lifters, and related little bits to make it happen based on findings from 30 seconds of web searches.  

What about an Olds 403 and a 200-4R?  Bonus points for 2nd gen T/A Shaker scoop going through the hood of the truck just like it would have had in the Pontiac F-body cars.  Feed it with a Q-jet.

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

Highly variable based on specifics but ~$500 gets you a DoD Delete kit with headbolts, gaskets, new lifters, and related little bits to make it happen based on findings from 30 seconds of web searches. 

I've seen those. It seems like the GenV engines require a fresh non-AFM cam as well. Those are often included in the kits, but if I'm pulling heads and swapping cams to delete AFM, and a new oilpan is needed to fit the chassis, I'm basically in that "engine rebuild" level of work that I'd prefer to avoid. You'd have to tune out the AFM in the computer too, so probably $1000 to do a delete seems about right.

That's compared to $200-400 and a few minutes of time to disable AFM with software or a plug in OBD device. It's still got a chance of failure with that, but the time/effort/price is appealing.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

STM317 said:

So, it sounds like if I end up with an engine with AFM I've got three basic choices:

1) leave it alone and hope that things work out (potentially having to do expensive valve train work and a cam if there's a failure)

2) electronically disable AFM for a couple hundred bucks to reduce (but not eliminate) the chances of experiencing a failure

3) Go ahead and do the valve train/cam/tune work to delete AFM now instead of doing it all later when it's in the chassis.

Working backwards...

#2 is kind of moot.  You will need to go into the tune to disable VATS anyway, when you're in there you disable the AFM.  Extra cost = zero.  HPT dongle is four hundred bucks and comes with two credits, once you apply those credits you can tweak that computer any way you like in perpetuity.

#1 is over blown.  The expense is in that you have to PULL THE HEAD to replace the lifters.  Also, replacing the lifters too I suppose.  But the head has to come off to get to them, so now you are in to gaskets and bolts and such.

#3: The only cam failure I have personally dealt with was on a NON-DOD engine.  Specifically an 8100, but that engine is like a 5/4ths GenIV motor....

I'd forgotten about VATS. That's a good point. Thanks!

Here's my dos centavos as someone who has done a couple of Gen IV LS swaps:  6Ls work great, and given the size and weight of your C10, their girth is no issue.  AFM and DOD are both worth getting rid of, as they amount to much of the warranty service that was done on this generation.  It amounts to funky lifters and a crappy plastic timing tensioner on the front of the engine that may or may not splode (like the stupid springs on the lifters).

Here's the other angle, plus why I'm yacking about my non-Gen V experience.  I spent the last several months shopping for a new truck (2500), and after not choosing to waste 10 grand on a diesel option, I chose a gasser (Ram, which I will call a Dodge).  Over the last decade, you had the end of the LS platform around 2013 in pickups, but it continued to 2016 or so in vans--I just sold my BMW swap with a 2014 4.8.  At any rate, the warranty claims skyrocketed after the Gen V was introduced.  A 2012-13 Silverado will frequently cost more than one two or three years newer, because Gen V (and probably other issues).  Over the past decade, it seems that GM operated like Ford, not allowing their massive warranty claims to alter their approach to not significantly changing serious problematic crap.

I chose a new Ram, but in reality, their engines have the same problems with the DOD crap, i.e., funky lifters that fail.  GM's new 6.6 is new, so I was in no way going to be the test subject . . .

For a bit of work, a few hundred in parts, and five minutes with somebody's HP Tuners, a Gen IV is the easy button.

On a side note, I have a brand-new (unused) Tanks Inc. EFI truck tank (https://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=173/category_id=133/mode=prod/prd173.htm), sender, and pickup, if you're interested--I'm in ATL metro.

rustomatic said:

 AFM and DOD are both worth getting rid of, as they amount to much of the warranty service that was done on this generation...

...At any rate, the warranty claims skyrocketed after the Gen V was introduced.  A 2012-13 Silverado will frequently cost more than one two or three years newer, because Gen V (and probably other issues).

Thanks for the input. I'm especially curious about the parts I quoted above. I've seen numerous claims across the internet that the Gen V has fewer AFM related issues than Gen IV, and then numerous claims that they're worse than the Gen IV too. I'd love to see some sort of actual data or analysis to clear things up in that regard. Can you shed a little light on how you know what the warranty claim rates have been without getting anybody into trouble?

I didn't realize it, but apparently there's an oil filter in the VLOM that needs to be cleaned, and is often found to be blocked when AFM fails?

https://www.melling.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Melling-tech-bulletin-on-GM-LS-Deactivation-Lifter-Issues-3.1.18-1.pdf

Is this common knowledge that I've just missed thus far? Is it the type of thing that would be done on a well maintained vehicle?

Just to add, regarding the transmission end of this, the 6l80 and 6l90 both appear to have converter issues. Assuming a healthy rest of the drivetrain, I'd definitely look at upgrading the converter, at a minimum, while doing a swap.

AFM and DOD are both just coil spring-related things (AFM is a button on the front of the cam gear), both of which are also controlled by oil flow and electronic switches.  If you have an engine out of the car, both are pretty easy to remove with an electric impact in hand.  What's worse in the front of the engines (not so much the pointless AFM) is the chain tensioner, which is a combo of thin metal and badly aging plastic.  All OEMs use something similar, but GM's tend to suck more.

I did a lot of used truck research building up to what became new truck research--this was hugely motivated by the currently insane used vehicle pricing.  On some used vehicle sites, you can get free Carfax (and other) reports that include dealer reported services/repairs.  Gen V trucks got ridiculous quickly.  The 2012-13 trucks fared much better . . .

AFM is newspeak for DOD, no?

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

AFM is newspeak for DOD, no?

Yep

Displacement on Demand (lifters) = Active Fuel Management?  Okay, then the front thingy = VVT.  Guess I crossed-up the letters.  Too many letters that need to go in the round file . . .

In reply to rustomatic :

I haven't heard about many VVT issues, and it seems like a generally beneficial tech as far as I can tell. I'd keep it. The DOD/AFM seems to be the potentially problematic part. 

I like the idea of AFM honestly. I think if I end up with an AFM equipped engine I'd just try to find an example with low miles and change the VLOM filter frequently and ride it as long as possible. For the Gen V engines at least, it seems like it's basically the same amount of work to fix failed AFM if it occurs as it would be to delete it upfront.

In reply to STM317 :

Cam bearings are supposed to die quickly in GenIV engines because the #2 (IIRC) journal is missing half its width, to accommodate the oil supply to the VVT mechanism.

The cylinder drop on demand needs to be electronically turned off or physically turned off via different lifters, valley cover and a few other bits.