Learn me ice racing... torque vectoring?

I'm planning on going ice racing up at Georgetown Lake this upcoming weekend. The machine in question is my 2015 Subaru WRX. It is mechanically stock, with the addition of a set of Michelin X-Ice Xi3 snow tires; they're not ideal for ice racing, but they work just fine at getting me to work in inclement weather.

I've been once before, but it was several years ago in my old '06 STI. I'm not expecting to be fast, but any tips pertaining to hustling my Subie around the ice would be greatly appreciated!

For reference, the course I'll be on is essentially just an autoX on a frozen lake.

My WRX has "active torque vectoring", which is basically just brake vectoring, where it applies light brake pressure to an inside wheel in order to help the car rotate. From my last experience on the ice several years ago, I remember the words "terminal understeer" coming to mind. As such, I'm thinking that leaving the torque vectoring on would probably be more helpful than hurtful. Thoughts?

My WRX has 3 "modes":

1) Traction, stability and torque vectoring all on.

2) Press the traction button once and it toggles traction control off, reduces stability control intervention and leaves torque vectoring on.

3) Hold the button for 5 seconds and it turns all 3 systems off.

^^^Given my lack of ice racing skill & experience, I assumed mode #2 would be best for me. Am I missing anything?

Also, thoughts on handbrake turns? I remember the last time I went in my old STI there were sharp 180 degree pivot points at the ends of the courses where the car would just understeer to infinity... I remember using my handbrake to pivot the car around them, but I honestly don't know if it was the fastest way to get the job done or not. Thoughts?

These will be pretty low-speed courses. I'm debating if I should use 1st gear, or do most of the work in 2nd in order to decrease torque to the wheels? Not sure if the extra torque will help, hurt or a bit of both on the frozen lake.

Any thoughts are appreciated! Thanks in advance!

I'd use mode 2, and I'd use the handbrake at the 180 turns. On pavement, the fastest way to go around a 180 cone is to use it as a late apex point, if you have room. On ice, you're going to be sliding anyway so late-apexing it isn't really an option, and you don't risk terminal understeer doing a bootleg turn...

90% of the time understeer is due to how the car is being driven, it can be driven around and avoided.

DaveEstey wrote: 90% of the time understeer is due to how the car is being driven, it can be driven around and avoided.

This, on ice, you need to enter turns SLOWLY. Rotating the car is fine, but you may find you are pointed the right direction, and still moving the wrong way... which doesn't help your time.

Keep in mind that with AWD, the handbrake often locks all 4 wheels (if all 4 are connected, stopping the rears also stops the fronts).

Back when I lived in Denver I did one or two races up at georgetown lake. I'm definitely jealous you're going!

Beware of using the handbrake in a WRX with the power on. I'm not 100% up to date on knowledge of the new ones, but the older ones with mechanical LSD's don't respond well to using the handbrake. The problem is that you now have the rear locked and are trying to put power down. This will screw up your centre diff.

Put it in mode 3. On ice like that it will get confused, and you might find yourself in limp mode.

I am not sure how they do it but the AWD guys don't seem to have problem with corners.

Visit out web site, www.icerace.com

some of the Sube driers are on the message board and I am sure they can help you out.

Lucky you having enough ice. We are still waiting. Present cold snap will help.

For the record I have a 16 wrx, and my company works with them exclusively. On ice, turn it all off.

A comment on the handbrake usage- your line and the moment you activate the handbrake skid are crucial. You want the initiation to be EARLIER than what your brain would think. Literally, the subie should be pointed the direction of the exit angle BEFORE the early apex point. This is because the car slides, loses momentum, gains traction, and THEN you power out. If you hand brake too late, the car will need countersteer to correct the angle of the car in par tell to the exit. Understand? I know that's a lot to take in, but watch how the rally guys enter 180's and you'll see. The good drifters in Japan do this. American drifters do not. They don't even understand the whole "start sliding sideways on the straightway before the corner"

^Yep you want the nose of the car to rotate right around the base of the cone, this means you need to be fully sideways before you even reach the cone.

Thanks for all the advice! Even if it is a bit mixed.

For the record, my WRX doesn't have a mechanical LSD; open diffs all around.

I suppose I'll just try a combination of things on different runs and see which work the best. Its a practice day, so I should get plenty of runs in.

Feel free to keep any further advice and experience coming!

Just do it exactly like this:

Love the old Gigi Galli stuff.

Trackmouse wrote: A comment on the handbrake usage- your line and the moment you activate the handbrake skid are crucial. You want the initiation to be EARLIER than what your brain would think. Literally, the subie should be pointed the direction of the exit angle BEFORE the early apex point. This is because the car slides, loses momentum, gains traction, and THEN you power out. If you hand brake too late, the car will need countersteer to correct the angle of the car in par tell to the exit. Understand? I know that's a lot to take in, but watch how the rally guys enter 180's and you'll see. The good drifters in Japan do this. American drifters do not. They don't even understand the whole "start sliding sideways on the straightway before the corner"

That is because American "drifters" just do burnouts around corners, not real drifting.

On an AWD, if you're countersteering at corner exit, you're slow. You're not turning with all four tires, you're just collecting a spin.

roninsoldier83 wrote: Thanks for all the advice! Even if it is a bit mixed.

If sachilles says mode 3, go with that, his advice comes from experience

In reply to Knurled:

Pretty cheeky to slam an entire nation of enthusiasts like that.

Anyways, yeah AWD around a hairpin is just getting the car to face 180 degrees at the entry, then you dump the clutch and the momentum of the car will carry it sideways and forwards out of the corner. Done right, you won't need any countersteer at all.

agree with the notion to turn it all off for ice.

Desmond wrote: In reply to Knurled: Pretty cheeky to slam an entire nation of enthusiasts like that.

Yeah, it's harsh, but it's still something that pisses me off. Watch some old Japanese drifting videos and that stuff is art, it is ballet on wheels, it is fascinating. Watch modern stuff, especially the stuff from this side of the Pacific, and it's lame. No grace at all, no nuance, no form, just big clouds of smoke doing a big burnout around a course. Blah.

None of this has anything to do with ice racing, of course.

In reply to Knurled:

Agreed 9,000% man. O.G. Dorifto FTMFW

Looooooooooooonnnnnnng entryyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Ou5F3QiT8

Trackmouse wrote: A comment on the handbrake usage- your line and the moment you activate the handbrake skid are crucial. You want the initiation to be EARLIER than what your brain would think. Literally, the subie should be pointed the direction of the exit angle BEFORE the early apex point. This is because the car slides, loses momentum, gains traction, and THEN you power out. If you hand brake too late, the car will need countersteer to correct the angle of the car in par tell to the exit. Understand? I know that's a lot to take in, but watch how the rally guys enter 180's and you'll see. The good drifters in Japan do this. American drifters do not. They don't even understand the whole "start sliding sideways on the straightway before the corner"

If you're using an E-brake on the lake, you're doing it wrong.

agree on handbrake. The drive by wire will also make left foot braking more of a challenge.

There are some videos on www.icerace.com that might give a clue as to how Sube drivers are doing it. I see a lot of sideways action.

Also, I am just sour because with the weather we have had I am afraid that there will be NO ice racing this year for me :(

No ice? Why not watersports?

here's what you do...

1)find a lake with enough ice on it.

2)hoon around like a maniac to figure this out

3)profit

Hopefully your mileage will vary, but a friend of mine was driving my 2015 WRX in the snow/ice and pulled the handbrake while going at speed. Not sure why, but it made the car really unhappy. It basically turned off all traction control and turned on a brake like code on the dash. We sat in a parking lot in the cold for half an hour trying to reset whatever wasn't right. I think we turned the car on and off a few times and then finally drove it a bit to put things back to normal.