Learn me Private Sales! + Any good stories?

So I made a post about some cars that I'm looking at and the various benefits and drawbacks of certain factors. I've now been looking at a bunch of cars on facebook marketplace. However, nobody in my family has ever bought a car private sale off of something like facebook marketplace, and I have no clue what I'm doing. I've read lots of articles but would appreciate the GRM perspective. Anyone got any top tips or advice? Do I need to get a PPI done (I have basic mechanical skill like brake jobs and oil changes but not mechanic level skill)? How much should a PPI cost? What should I look for besides rust and known issues on the specific models? How do I avoid stuff like this: https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/chicago-facebook-marketplace-robberies? Negotiating tips? 

Bonus question - Anyone got any good private sale stories?!

Oh man be careful first timer.   I buy for a local charity and our sub-$10k budget has taught me lots.  
 

1.  Make sure title is in sellers name to weed out the flippers.

2.  Ask for the vin and a few questions as flippers and the shady sellers won't answer or answer fully. 
3.  Don't meet at night 

4.  Don't use their payment services (scam) or send deposits before you see car 

5.  Bring paperwork from your state and fill out together before handing over cash 

6.  Meeting at bank to finalize transaction isn't a bad idea 

7.  Run carfax or autocheck to make sure mileage hasn't been rolled back or accident that hasn't been disclosed. 

Ask if you have more questions.   And remember every ad is a scam unless seller proves otherwise in FB marketplace. 

I'll add in to use the buddy system if you can... Where are you at?  The GRM on the road assist map might make it easy to find a grease monkey Ford Econobox to help you out?

If you're anywhere near the CT/MA line, I'd be happy to go with you at least once or twice.

If it's an expensive car with known weaknesses, a PPI is a good idea. If it's a Corolla, I'd probably skip it.

Lots of police stations now have dedicated parking spots specifically for Craigslist-type transactions

Verify that the VIN you're given actually matches the car. I've bought 50+ cars and only had two shady sellers. Guy gave me a clean VIN over email, I get there and the car is obviously salvaged with laughably poor repairs. Check the VIN he gave me against the dash, completely different cars. Guy claimed he was "selling it for his brother."  

I bought a mustang from a farm from the most sketchy hillbillies ever.  And took them at their word they'd "mail the title" once they found it.  They never did, so I did the vermont registration for it.  I did that because I always wanted to try the vermont loop hole.

In reply to Evanuel9 :

Feel free to post up links to cars you are interested in and we will look at the ad and tell you if we see any red-flags with that car or the seller.  I don't recommend a new thread for each car but rather use this thread or start a new thread as a place to put up the choices of your shopping adventure.  

Make sure you know exactly what you need in your state to be able to transfer the vehicle into your name.  It doesn't hurt to meet at the office that does vehicle transfers with the seller and not give them a cent until the clerk verifies that all is in order.

The number one question to ask before you even go look at the car is if the title is clean, clear of any liens, in the seller's name, and in the seller's possession.  Especially if you're in a notary state.  I've done private party sales on vehicles with liens on them, but you need to be careful.  I went to the bank with the seller, watched him pay off the loan, and got a letter from the bank. 

Definitely avoid getting murderraped.  Take a friend.  That gives you some backup and also gives you someone to say "hey, I know you're really excited about this car, but aren't you concerned about the flames coming out from under the hood?"

Despite what sleazy attorneys will apparently try to pull, there is no 3 day return period or any type of warranty on a used car from a private party.  So inspect it thoroughly because you're buying it with all its faults.

In reply to Caprigrip :

Not gonna lie, I'm a little bit nervous but also excited. 

Thanks for the tips!

In terms of paperwork, should I insist on filling it out at the bank before giving the money? I know in some states you have to fill it out at the DMV. Is cash a bad idea compared to a check/cashier's check?

Also, would it be poor etiquette to go look at a car but not purchase it until after I've looked at other ones? Like for example when buying from a dealer you'll look at multiple cars then decide on one but I don't know if that's considered rude or wasting time for a private sale?

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

In Chicago area - looking to buy within 1.5 hrs of me (parental restrictions - I wanted to fly and drive :D)

If anyone is in the Chicago area and wants to help id gladly accept!! I can bring some donuts or something (not old enough to buy beer lol)

In reply to calteg :

Got it, so stuff like an e36s should prob get a ppi but an is300 or Impreza or mazda2 is probably not necessary?

Do sellers tend to agree to police station transactions? If I'm buying the car they probably wouldn't want to be stranded at a police station.

For checking the vin you mean check that the vin on the title matches the one on the dash right?

In reply to camopaint0707 :

That seems really sketch - glad you got it figured out. Illinois (my state) does not have a good process for not having a title besides bonded titles so I definitely won't be buying a car within the title. 

In reply to John Welsh :

Thank you! Still at work but I will do that when I get home. I've actually created a Google spreadsheet that lists different cars and links to them so maybe I can share the link to that sheet? 

In reply to wae :

I'm guessing all the info is on the DMV website? Do sellers tend to agree to meet at the office for sales?

I want to avoid any title issues because my state doesn't have a great process for getting titles for untitled cars and because I don't want the hassle. How do I check for liens? Is it on Carfax (is Carfax itself worth the price?)

Definitely plan to bring a friend. Someone also suggested GRM members might be willing to help so I will see if anyone's in the Chicago area. 

Any tips on inspections? Right now it seems like check the basics (fuel, spark, brakes, oil, trans) and make sure there's no rust or car specific common problems. Anything else to look for? 

This will vary by state, but educate yourself on what is needed as far as paperwork, people, and information.  For instance, PA requires both parties to be in the presence of a DMV-licensed notary.  You can go to the DMV itself or one of its satellite offices, but there are also private companies who are linked directly to PennDOT.  It's a small hurdle, but it's also a one-stop shop.  You walk in, seller signs, buyer signs, you fork over the money for registration, tax, and their small fee (usually $15 or 20) and walk out 7 minutes later with a plate and paperwork.  Title comes in the mail a few weeks later.  In TX, no notary needed.  The seller signs the title, then I had to take it to the tax office and pay my fees/registration there.  Much easier, but also much easier to forge a signature and steal a car.

Regardless of whether or not your state requires a bill of sale, get one anyway.  I just keep a Word document on my computer that just includes name, address, price, and a spot for two signatures.  If there are any other terms, just edit the document to include it.  The last car I bought was from a friend's grandmother.  She was clueless on the process and paranoid about dotted Is and crossed Ts.  I included an as-is/where-is, no warranty, sale final paragraph and my buddy and I showed her so that she felt better that I wasn't going to come ask for my $3000 back.  I sold a car to an ex girlfriend - but close friend - and I put "Buyer agrees to give seller one hand job."  She laughed and quickly crossed it off.  Make copies for both parties.

Some states just take your word for what you paid and charge tax accordingly.  Other states use a blue-book value of some sort.  In many states that don't ask for a bill of sale can still dispute your purchase price claim.  Having a bill of sale is usually the way out of that.  I bought a Dodge Dakota with front end damage from a friend.  I got it for $1200.  The state called BS and tried to charge me tax on the $4000 they thought it was worth.  Fortunately, I had a signed bill of sale and made it go away.

If you're in a state that takes your word on purchase price, you do have the option of being shady and lying to cut taxes.  I personally do not, but I don't judge if others do.  The kind of cars I buy, the tax isn't a big deal.  The car I bought in November cost $200, so I'm not going to lie to avoid paying $12 in tax.  Many times when I'm selling, what I do is I sign both copies of the bill of sale but leave the price blank and hand it to the buyer and say something like "I'll let you fill in that part."  If they want to lie and possibly get caught for tax fraud, that's on them.

But it's really a straightforward process once you learn it.  Your state's DMV likely has this all spelled out.  There is also a DMV.org website that summarizes the rules for all 50 states.  The downside is that they sometimes over condense, or they aren't on top of changes in all states.  Still a good resource in plain english.

Negotiations are usually pretty easy.  The problem is when you have someone selling their baby and they think it's worth twice the price.  I often take screenshots of other ads for similar cars that are selling for not-crack-smoking money, and I'll show the buyer.... not as a way to tell them they're smoking crack, but as a way to demonstrate other prices under the guise of "these are the other cars I'm considering, what do you think?"  That also reminds the seller that he/she isn't the only fish in the sea and you're not married to their car.

Have a number you're willing to pay, Shoot a little below it knowing that you can come up to your magic number in negotiations.  Expect some of them to be insulted.  That's not on you.  Be willing and ready to walk away.  The quicker the better.  Not rudely, but a swift "well, thank you, but I can see we won't be able to agree on a price, and I'm late to look at the next car," is a brilliant way of thanking the seller for their time and also making them think, "huh... maybe I do have it priced high."  I've lost a lot of car purchases that way.  The next guy was willing to go $1000 more than I was.  Some people get FOMO from that, but I don't.  I wasn't willing to pay that.  I would rather not have the car than to overpay beyond my comfort level.  Another car will come around.

There is a Jaguar that I really want about an hour away.  He's asking more than twice what it's worth at $12,500.  I called and offered $6000.  He got insulted.  That was in (no joke) 2020, and that Jag is STILL on FBM.  Almost 4 years.  Good luck selling that Jag, buddy.

Curtis brings up a lot of good points. Buying/selling is often an emotional process, which is why you hear so many "I went in to just look and next thing I know I'm buying a car!" stories.

Apparently the state of Illinois has a free title search:

Title and Registration Status Inquiry (ilsos.gov)

The state offered ones tend to be binary (title branded or clean title), and lack the extra features you'd get with an Autocheck or Carfax. If you need help with a history report and have it narrowed down to a few cars, shoot me a PM

In reply to Evanuel9 :

Whomever does motor vehicle things in your state should have it spelled out on a website somewhere along with a various forms that you might need.  Here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, that stuff is all done by the County Clerk and I've called them on the phone or just walked into the office and asked them what I needed for this or that type of transaction.

As far as checking for liens, I'm not entirely sure how to do that other than looking to see if it's printed on the title.  As far as I am aware, I have never dealt with a car that was encumbered with a lien from one of those title loan places, so I don't know how easy/hard it would be to have a title that doesn't reflect a current lien.  When you attempt to transfer it, however, the state's computer will tell you for sure.  Another good reason to have the seller meet you there.

One thing to remember is that you're going to be dealing with people that may not have sales experience so they might be under the mistaken impression that they're doing you a favor.  I get a chuckle out of the folks that think that they can put something up for sale and not expect that they're going to have to do any sort of work to sell the thing.  Now, that doesn't mean that I think it's okay to abuse a seller or waste their time, but if you need more pictures, want to shop that car against other cars, or want to meet somewhere to verify the paperwork is in order, then they're going to need to accommodate that if they want to sell a car.  I wouldn't go to a private seller to look at or test drive a car that I had no intention of buying the same way I might go test drive a car from a dealer, for example.  But if the seller is unwilling to meet you somewhere public or to meet you at the place where titles get transferred, I'd consider that a red flag.  Either they're doing something shady or they're an a-hole.

Inspections are going to really depend on the car and how much we're talking about.  If it's a "nice car" for "nice car money", then checking all the fluids is a good start, hooking up a code reader to see if the MIL bulb has been disconnected or if the emissions readiness isn't set yet, asking for and looking at maintenance records, definitely looking for rust and signs that there was any sort of accident, searching for evidence of leaks or leaks that have been recently cleaned up, looking at the suspension, steering, and chassis to make sure nothing is worn or broken, listening for any sorts of noises, and that sort of thing.  I'm wary of any car that I go to look at that's been warmed up already - I think it's important to see what it's like from a cold start.  Tire wear is a good thing to look at as well - that's one of those things that if they're running around eating up the inside of a tire either something is bent or they're not noticing or caring that the alignment is either way out or has been a little out for a long time; that's a sign that they might not be so good with the maintenance.  Honestly, for most cars that's what I'm trying to get a good sense of - has this thing been maintained or do they just put in gas and go with an oil change every few whenever-they-feel-like-its.  If there are open recalls, that's not a big deal to get done but the fact that they didn't bother says that they don't care very much.

Before you go look at a car, do a little internet sleuthing to see if that car has a common problem so you can check for that and/or ask if whatever remedy has already been applied.  And if they don't have the paperwork to prove that it just got a "new crate engine" 5,000 miles ago, assume they're lying.

If you're looking for a E36 M3box for E36 M3box money, then different rules apply.  A $3,500 car needs to be able to give you $3,500 worth of time out of it.  If you can make it last a year, your car payment is $300/month so work backwards from there to decide how much inspection it needs and what you'll accept.

Another thing being in the Chicago area, Make sure the smog testing certification is current. You can check it here: https://illinoisairteam.net/vehicle-eligibility-check-tool/ If it's not, then don't complete the deal till it is. 

Here's a private sale story:

I looked at a Porsche for sale one time that was supposed to be low mileage, something like 40K.  I perused some service and repair receipts I found in the glove compartment, one of which recorded a mileage of over 130,000 at some point in the past. Thank you for your time...

I can't speak for all brands, but I know it is easy to make an old BMW/VW/Porsche mechanical odometer read whatever you want. And they do break, on their own. Which means the mileage reading is worthless without records documenting the gradual accumulation of miles. 

The online history reports do a pretty good job of highlighting discrepancies, but they have weaknesses. They can only report what has been reported to them, and that excludes repairs/service by the owner as well as many retail shops.

In reply to Evanuel9 :

It all depends   Can you tell us what you are looking for?  A $8k Corolla will sell in a day so you won't really be able to look around at other cars while seller waits.   A specialty car you may have some time.   Make sure he gives you title and look at it before handing over cash (or cashiers check, etc).  
 You should be able to 'feel out' the seller with initial conversations.   Oh and the 'it's in my brothers mothers aunts name' is almost always a lie.  

Good advice on bringing a friend along.   And see what your state requires for signatures and paperwork.  I am in Texas so it is pretty easy here.  

Busy at work but will answer everyone when I get home!

In the meantime here's my spreadsheet if anyone wants to browse through it lol.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1570f_iZOaY7JNImx40TWaxmenQCS16Wh2F7vyTAW7Xo/edit?usp=drivesdk

I agree there are a lot of "it depends..."  Where you are located? The price of the vehicle/object? And to put it bluntly, your individual situation on financial risk - certain levels of cash represent different levels of risk to different people. 

The last vehicle I bought from someone I didn't know was my 1992 E350.  I saw the ad on Craigslist, immediately contacted the seller, drove out to see it the next day.  Agreed to buy it (his price was crazy low, so I didn't bother with negotiating). Got the cash from the bank the next day and drove up with a friend to meet him at a PA Tag place near him.  Exchanged cash in the tag office, did the paperwork and I drove the van home. 

The process in Illinois is pretty easy. Taxes are paid based on the model year of the car, so there is really no ability to change what you pay, and there is no reason to not be honest. 

When you look at the car, make sure the vin on the car matches the vin on the title. Make sure the seller, and that means anybody and everyone listed as an owner on the title has signed it. Those signitures need to match as they are written on the title. I have dealt with stuff like this in the past. I had a lady sign her married name, and the title was in her given name. Also had a guy sign a title but his wife was also listed on the title, and she had not signed. In both cases I was able to get titles, but only because the sellers were helpful. I could have been stuck with a car without title.

If the title has any scribbles, crossouts, usually called "corrections" it is basically worthless. If the area labeled "buyers name" has anything written in it other than your name, and only your name it is basically worthless. Whatever date filled in as the date of sale is when your sticker will expire. Make sure that is correct.

I have bought/sold 50+ cars in IL and a dozen+ cars out of state, or with out of state titles. Cars under $10k are the easiest transactions typically, though very cheap cars can be difficult because the amount of weirdos/crackheads/degenerates that goes with them.

In our area rust is scarier to me than other issues. Also make sure you spend time flipping switches, and using all the controls on the inside of the car. It's a very good indicator of a car with electrical issues if anything isn't working. Never take anyone's word for any problems. It's never "just a fuse" etc.

Of all you listed, the BMW 128 in Metro Indy is the most interesting make, model to me.  But, I'll admit I do not understand what's written.  Seller mentions accident but unclear of what was damaged.  I'd suggest to send some questions to the seller.  

Additional...  What's your intention here?  I presume the intention is a fun daily driver.  If so, 30+ year old cars make less than ideal daily drivers.  Even we'll maintained examples still fall to the ravages of time.  I'd recommend sticking with something 20 years old or less . 

Good cars sell fast therefore find the money first and then find the car.  Don't think you can find the car first and then find the money.  This is a route to disappointment because if the car is generally good it will sell before you can get funds together.  

In reply to John Welsh :

Some folks have money in a drawer ready to head over quickly to buy a car.