Learn me Saab 900 turbos

I'm pondering flipping the Saturn in the spring and getting something more interesting and less rusty underneath (yes, plastic cars do rust). A friend has way too many cars at his shop and is trying to cut down a bit, so he's trying to help both of our causes. He's got a few classic Saab 900s, including a few Turbos and a couple of SPGs, and thinks one of them may suit my needs nicely (cheap, economical, good on gas, fun to drive, back seat - autocross manners not required, that's what the Miata's for). I know next to nothing about Saabs, other than the SPG is the super souped up factory model, and Saabs in general are kind of quirky - ignition by the shifter, engine mounted backwards on top of the transmission and linked by a chain... What would it be like to live with one day to day, including winter? FWD isn't my preference, but I live with it now and could continue to if it's fun enough...

In reply to White_and_Nerdy:

The SPG is no faster than the regular 900 turbo. They are pretty easy to soup up. I had a 85 turbo with a lot of parts from Group 6. I think they have switched names to Group 9 maybe. The car loved high test gas and would run more boost if I threw in an octane booster.

It was a lot of fun and very practical. The trannys are weak though and I grenaded mine along with the driveshaft. You always see ads for them with replacement gearboxes. They have a lot of turbo lag compared with more modern turbos.

is your friend anywhere near the mid-atlantic? I would love me an SPG.

the SPG.. in europe was called the "aero" model. It was simply a bodykit to reduce drag

This has been gone over before, have you used the search feature?

Andrew

I've been daily-driving a 900T for over a decade and it suits me just fine. My 89 recently rolled 200k and runs like it always has. The hatch is huge, and they're fun to drive. Years ago I added a ton of extra boost cuz it's fun and cheap; no problems yet.

They kick ass in the snow (I do some winter time-speed-distance rallies in an '85), but they're not magic, so don't think you'll be able to use your summer tires. (I'm using cheap but awesome General Altimax Arctics, which are an old Gislaved snow tire that's been rebranded -- they work as well as Hakka 2s, though they are not top-of-the-line.) They're actually better in snow if you pull the front sway bar, but that's a bit of a PITA.

85-86 SPGs had no more power than standard Turbos (160hp), and had the same suspension, too. 87-91 SPGs got lower, stiffer springs and different shocks, and more boost. 87-89 had just a few hp more (10-ish??). 90-91 SPGs had the most power of all SPGs (175 vs. 160 std Turbo). (In fact, the 93-94 Commemorative Editions, which weren't SPGs, had the most power of all c900s: 185.) But, as noted earlier, this doesn't matter. You can take a 160 hp Turbo and add 25 hp for about $20 and a trip to the pull-a-part.

89-90 transmissions were the best, but all years are not strong. 91+ had crappy synchros; pre 89 had smaller pinion bearings. If you abuse them, they will thank you by crapping out on you.

88+ have better brakes than earlier years, which had an annoying front e-brake. 90+ have ABS (and airbag).

90-91 SPGs had a smaller Mitsubishi turbo than the T3 fitted all other years. In 91, all run-of-the-mill Turbos got this Mitsu as well. Closer in size to a T25, the Mitsu makes a difference with lag. (Incidentally, the Mitsu has a T3 bolt pattern.) You can easily tweak the timing to improve off-boost performance, too.

Finally, these cars have a double wishbone front end that is easily adjustable with shims from the pull-a-part.

I've had two and loved them to death. Check for timing chain rattle and blown head gaskets. They are VERY easy to make fast (exhaust/downpipe + aftermarket dump valve + silicone vacuum lines = 275HP+/-); they are NOT easy to make fast and reliable, as the transmissions are made of glass. Handling is pretty good, I have never owned another FWD car that goes through the snow (sideways) as well as a C900. I'd take one to an HPDE before an autocross - you'll either be out of the boost range the whole time, or you'll blow up 1st/2nd gear very quickly. They are truly at home on the freeway and decent curvy 45MPH B-roads.

Serpentine belt changes are a PITA, but the trade-off is that clutches are really easy. They are roomy and can carry a ton of E36 M3, two people can very comfortably sleep in the back with the seat down. Seating position and view out of the windshield is...odd. Not bad, just odd. You get used to it. Window regulators, like many similar cars, go out pretty often. If yours has a working sunroof, don't use it, because it won't work for long! My '88 sedan had rattles and squeaks all over the interior, but my '87 CC never made a sound, so who knows on that one. They are pretty good on gas if you keep your foot out of it, I saw returns as good as 32 MPG.

Also, the only spot where they rust out really badly is the passenger side front suspension mounting area - watch for it, but patch panels are available and not terribly hard to weld in. This problem can make an otherwise really nice car available for a steal.

They drive like no other car, so I'd drive one before I commit. I personally don't care for the driving experience, but those who dig it love these cars to death in spite of their expensive problems.

When I worked at the stealership one of my compatriots said SPG stood for "superfluous plastic garbage", which was pretty much spot on. Mostly a bunch of cladding and a few bits you could easily source online or at the junkyard.

OK, so most likely I'd get a non-SPG 900 Turbo and not feel bad about running it through the winter. Besides, it's Swedish - they know about snow.

Years ago I did drive a 900 Turbo for a few laps around a practice course at a Boston BMW ice event. I never got into boost, but I did rather enjoy the handling. I wasn't e-braking or left foot braking or anything, yet the back of the car enjoyed swinging around to help me turn, in a very predictable, controllable way that I haven't experienced in any other FWD car without applying funky braking techniques. I should definitely try before I buy.

Thanks for all the info - keep it coming!

If the transmissions are so fragile, what is out there in the aftermarket to beef them up? Does someone sell a stronger gearset?

Andrew

digdug18 wrote: If the transmissions are so fragile, what is out there in the aftermarket to beef them up? Does someone sell a stronger gearset? Andrew

There are stronger gearsets but they are only available from Sweden and are $$$. Scanwest Autosport in Seattle does 89-90 rebuilds with shot-peened gears and a number of other things, but they, too, are quite spendy. Saab made about 900,000 of these cars but it was over a 14-year run (79-93): there simply isn't much of an aftermarket. Back when they were involved in rallying, you could actually buy a special, heavy-duty gearbox from a Saab dealer's parts counter: they had an extensive Sport & Rally catalog with all sorts of goodies. (It's not like there's NO aftermarket, though: you can get a Quaife for them these days, and a clutch-type diff, too.)

One of the problems is the pinion bearings tend to go; there are a bunch of theories floating around on the 'net as to why this happened so often (crush washer?? oil spec?? bearing spec?? no gear oil change interval?? heat-induced oil degradation??), but I've not seen a definitive explanation. With big power, the gears appear to separate and auto-machine (often 3rd gear), apparently due to the case flexing. The diffs can blow out the side of the case, too. Some people have built a steel girdle to fit around the back of the 'box to help keep things in place; there are certain late 99 model cases that are said to be stronger, etc.

procainestart wrote: there are certain late 99 model cases that are said to be stronger, etc.

IIRC (sold my last 900T 10 months ago), the box you mentioned is the 4-speed "Chillcast" box from certain 99's. I guess the housing is much stronger or something? Another strengthening measure is the steel rear diff cover available from saabrally.com; I was going to order one for my car but the suspension was near collapse and my Audi was running again.

What good saab forums are out there?

Andrew

@ SlickDizzy -- yes, the chillcast is stronger. It's heavier, too. I've got one in my 86 notchback, along with a steel diff cover from Scanwest. 4-speed is a bit of a drag, though. I changed the primary chain gears but it's a compromise: first is too tall, fourth too short. In exchange for a 5th gear, I get a gearset with wider gears.

@ Andrew -- in my opinion, www.saabrally.com is the best performance-related Saab site. The guys there are hard-core and knowledgeable WRT beating on these cars, but it kind of requires a certain amount of previous knowledge, i.e., you wouldn't go on there and say, "how do I make my car faster?" but you would go on there and ask about how people are plumbing their gearbox cooler .

For general Saab stuff, I like www.saabnet.com. People will tell you that it makes your eyes bleed and isn't very usable, but it's got a lot of knowledgeable posters on it, too, including a couple Saab techs currently, and a handful more over the years. The performance board there has died, bu there is a lot of good info in older posts, including a lot of info from a Saab engineer who worked on engine management.

www.saabcentral.com tends to have a more unfavorable signal:noise ratio. Not that there aren't some sharp folks there sharing good info, but, in my opinion, Saabnet is better. www.saablink.net seems all right but it allows some snarky posting that I don't much care for (guess I'm too old). Further out there is www.uksaabs.com -- you guessed it, out of England. www.saabscene.com is also out of England. www.saabturboclub.com is in Sweden. They have an English sub-forum but it's not terribly active.

Finally, there's a tech in North Carolina who's typed up a bunch of really nice repair stuff. It's not forum but it's a great resource for c900 owners: www.townsendimports.com -- it's a nice complement to the Bentley manual.

procainestart has really covered all of the important points.

I have to say that I prefer the 'snarky' posting of SaabLink.net, but I've also met many of the members in person at SOC and Carlisle and I think that changed my interpretation a bit. SaabNet is still a great place to go to search for tech information, but the community feel is non-existent IMO. SaabRally is the E36 M3, really, but I don't have a lot to contribute to the conversations there since I usually just use my C900s/99s as amusing DDs. I've had C900s since 2002 or so and I've still never so much as autocrossed one.

They're cheap. I find them to be really easy to work on. ddavidv was right when he said they drive like nothing else. I like the experience (a lot), and to me, a C900 is the closest thing to a perfect DD that I've found. I've had everything from cherry low mileage non-turbos to a 260+k mile '88 SPG, and all of them have been great cars.

Watch for rust.

Watch for trans issues.

Watch for blown head gaskets.

None of these are deal-breakers if the price is right, but you want to get an accurate assessment of the condition before throwing down any money (same as any other car). All of the other issues I've ever encountered are pretty easily overcome.

Parts aren't terribly expensive, and chances are that if you meet some local enthusiasts, you won't have to search too long or hard for even the rarest of parts. All of the local Saabers around here hoarde parts, and this seems to be the norm. I'm no exception.

Beware: My love for the C900 is what got me to start playing with the older SAABs. Its a slippery slope, and I'm not the only one who has experienced this. Good thing is... they're reallllllly cheap to play with, in relation to most antiques.

Here are a couple of shots with the C900s that I lived with the longest...

The 260+k mile '88 SPG:

The '87 900S Airflow:

This one didn't stick around too long because I fell through the floor twice in one week, but I got it for free and drove it for a couple of months. '85 SPG:

900's are lots of fun. The trans is not that bad over all. Just follow the rules 1. no hard acceleration on broken pavement. 2. No speed shifting. 3. No drag launches. If you want a drag car buy something else. But with new plugs, wires, cap and rotor (keep them new), exhaust, DYI APC box and ebay intercooler you will be good for some fun. Of course tires, brakes, and Brad's springs are a must.

More paint progress

I looked breifly on a couple of forums, and even from the factory for rally racing they seem to have tranny problems.

other then the mythical beast of a chill cast tranny, there seems to be little to fix the problem, and even then it's not bullet proof. What other things can fix the problem?

Andrew

In reply to digdug18:

Andrew, the answer to your question ("What other things can fix the problem?") is stated above. Don't drive like a jackass and it will last for years. Its the same with a Porsche 915 transmission. If you drive them nice they can last forever. And they have a great old school feel in this day of cable shift cars.

I will add that I think it's the shock loads that kill it. They can handle big HP.

My wife daily drove a Group 6 modded convertible for years. Gobs of power... never any trans issues, but I was wearing out axle tripods...

But she much prefers the way an E30 vert drives to the SAAB... though she misses the power.

Bill

Snipes is correct though the gearbox can last longer than advertised by many but it will not last forever like they can on some cars. I think 150k is the most I have seen on them.

The good thing is that these cars are so cheap. The best SPG in the world will cost about $4,500 and standard 900 Turbo's in excellent condition seem to sell routinely from $2,000 to $2,500 and this is for a super clean rust free car with a rebuilt gearbox and headliner. They are a lot of car for the money. The headliner will eventually fall out of all the ones I have seen but is cheap to replace.

I had a 86 Turbo 3 door and a 88 900 S 4 door. I am likely to buy another 3 door at some point. Craigslist is your friend for finding one cheap.

Check out the buyers guide we did in GRM here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/nordic-metal/

Oooo, buyer's guide - thanks for the link!

OK, so it's definitely a consideration for me. Thanks again for all the good info! I knew I could count on people here. :)

I agree with not being stupid with the tranny, but I mean, no one makes a complete aftermarket tranny housing, that might help to solve the problem. I saw that they sell replacement diff covers made of thicker materials and such, but it also seems like that doesn't solve the problem either.

I'm tempted to try one, because they are so cheap and have potential, but would I be wasting my money on such a car, i dunno.

Andrew

I learned to drive on and crashed an 83 900s and much later owned an 89 900s. They are to me one of the most comfortable cars to drive and I will have a classic turbo someday.